Projects The bucket of ugly! A de-uglifying thread...

Okay gang, I promised a bit of progress, and this off course is brought to you by the sound "PFFFFFFFFFTTTT", and by the ceremonial release of smoke that either means there is a new Pope, or an electronic component has failed.

So, the quickest way to get back on the road was to dig out my spare Mallory YC distributor and pull out the points, figure out a coil, and get back to gettin' on. I lucked into this extra YC at a small, private junk yard I frequent for 20.00 if memory serves. I'm pretty sure it was never run in anything, but years of semi-outdoor storage have made it not so pretty. All is new inside, so out it comes.

Next, what coil to use? I don't know about you, but lately, if I don't spend big silly dollars on a name brand coil, it's left me stranded within a year. The decision was made easier by the fact that I HATE external ballast resistors, and I knew one would be the deal if I was to run points. Why easier? 'Cause I was about to call on my VW days in more ways than one! See, cool little fact, VWs use an internally resisted coil! Now, the first thing you do with a newly acquired air cooled bug, is tool down to the friendly local VW shop and buy a Bosch "hop up kit", which has a .009 distributor (damn near perfect performance curve!) and, what we are concerned with here, A Bosch blue coil. I have never personally seen a blue coil go bad... EVER! They have a very nice output, and are of a very high quality. In researching this buy though, I do have to note that in the last couple of decades since my heavy involvement with the VW world, there has been a couple of changes in the storied blue coil. There is now a version made by my neighbors to the south down in Mexico that is oil filled and not noted for the traditional dependability. The is another version that has "Blue Coil" written across it, yet is silver, and also oil filled... Bad. The one to get is the Brazilian version, which is epoxy filled, internally resisted, and neigh on indestructible. Plan on spending about 50.00 at your wholesaler or VW joint.

So, with the good stuff in hand, lets cure something else that has driven me nuts with this thing since I have had it... I HATE clutter on top of an engine! Engines always look best when stripped down to their skivvies, If you will, with a minimum of stuff stuck on them, and as little wires running to and from as possible. This has made me crazy!

So, what to do? Well, I had intended to find a nice little coil bracket and mount it to the firewall in true traditional fashion, but coil brackets these days are either gawd-awful complicated billet stuff, or super cheap, flimsy, badly chromed crap made by one of Judy's relatives... Think... Hey, wait a second, what was that trick we did with the VWs? The one where we gacked a hole through both sides of the fan shroud and stuck the coil through... Ya, that's the ticket! So I grabbed my 2 1/8" hole saw, held the coil up, squared it with my thumb and one eye closed, closed my eyes and pulled the trigger.

Something else to mention here. Another reason for the Bosch Blue coil is the fact that it is epoxy filled. It has been my findings, that an oil filled coil laid on it's side is RARELY happy for very long. Many in the ignition business have told me that I am wrong, but I didn't notice them hangin' out the night the Plymouth ate it's coil at 11:00pm on a Sunday night 3 miles from Dateland, AZ.! Never heard of Dateland, AZ? There's a reason! It's literally 75 miles from ANYWHERE! The theory is that an oil filled coil allows the upper coils when laid on it's side to be exposed and out of the cooling oil. This makes stuff not happy with prolonged use... POP! Epoxy fills are almost indestructible, 'matter of fact, stock VW installation is upside down and at an angle.

Cleans stuff right up; Cee? In the end I lost the spade clips and went with loop terminals, which I almost always use simply because if anything loosens up, it still stays in place and functions. Now on ward and upward to making this stuff function! Oh, a simple band clamp holds it in place from behind, and eventually, this will be transferred to the polished aluminum fire wall to come. Next off, that damn throttle cable! Solid linkage soon.

Sure cleans stuff up!

 

Looking good

Will that coil work with a Pertronix module ?

I have a vintage Holley distributor rebuilt and modified with the Pertronix unit by GMC Bubba for my Y Block.

 

George, this is the set up in my Chevy II. It was dead reliable for a good 10 years before I took the car down for a freshening up.

Nothing wrong with that, MadMike. You notice I don't post too many pics of my T on here (except detail shots of how certain things are done as options for people), that's because it doesn't really fit in (Well, it does have some ugly that needs to be removed). The car has an identity crisis, it's seems to me (like a lot of other T buckets) to be trying to be to many things in one car. It has some drag style (Blown 392 , Weld Wheels, Giant back tires), some Fad T style (Top, deep diamond tufted interior, and cowl lights, lots of chrome), and a beautiful billet aluminum luggage rack that really doesn't fit the rest of the car. Then it has the ugly (bright red painted frame and radiator inside a chrome grill shell, performance stickers on the frame rails, chrome Ahh-ooga horn mounted on the frame between the radiator and engine, etc.....). But I have been gathering parts for two traditional styled T's for years, a mid to late 60's T bucket, and a '27 T roadster pickup (Steel body, '40 ford hydraulic brakes, 292 (.060 . Eventually one of these two cars will be worthy of this thread! ;-D

 

And we just keep feeding my addictions....just bought another 54 '60's Hot Rod, Car Craft, Popular Hot Rodding, and Rod and Custom magazines on ebay.

 

The man knows what he's doing.. Thanks for the "food for coil thought" Chip.

 

Absolutely!!! That's one of the best parts about the Blue! They run in a 3-4 Ohm range which makes them ideal for most aftermarket drop in type electronic ignitions.

After a bit of futzin' around today, it's running just about as good as it will get. The sad part is that in just flat seat of the pants feel, it runs nowhere nearly as well as the electronic ignition does. as soon as my E-bay stuff closes on Sunday, I think I'll make the short drive to So-Cal and pick up a new Pertronix unit.

 

That blue coil is just the Best!
Simple and best!

The stock coil in my OT 68 Volvo is the same coil, just dropped an inch in to my firewall.

But that solution with mounting it flush with the firewall, is so clean! I like it alot.

Is the old Mallory two point distributor complet obselete since the days of breakerless ignition.
I wanted one for the longest time. Since I missed out on one.

 

I don't know what the current status is for any of the Mallory stuff. I have noticed it disappeared from a couple of catalogs lately, both points and electronic. My distributor is a YC series from the fifties and early sixties, and hasn't been made in years now. I love the two piece cap and the lack of plug in terminals in the top as well. Very clean and very simple, and, loaded with a Pertronix and a proper coil, very effective!

 

Was there ever a electrical distributor from Mallory that looked like the dual breaker one?

It's all about the over all look, the performance can always be fixed.

It's rare for us to see breakers anymore, because of 1) gas prizes is so jack up, that we do about anything to get a mile extra per tank 2) the quality of the plastic, and the lesser amount platinium, means you can't file them at all, if you make a scratch in the surface they goes bad instantly.
So sad.

So most of the purist have went to breakerless, or get some overprized send from the US of A to get a good quality.

 

Most of the Mallory stuff both points and electronic look like a typical '60s-'70s small bodied performance distributor. They have a few geared to racing that look a bit more modern, but that's it. Mine is real early stuff and strictly swap meet fodder these days.

 

Thanks Chip, it's the blue Bosch coil made in Brazil. Do you have any sort of part number to provide us with ?
Larry.

 

Short answer is yes. Mallory's first try at an "electronic" ignition (at least that I can remember clearly, there is a fuzzy recollection of something back in the 60's that "might" have pre-dated this one) was the Mallory Solid State that adapted a Chrysler ignition box to a Chevy. After that was the Unilite in the late 70's/ early 80's (technically an optically fired ignition, but still technically electronic), then the Mallory Hi Fire IV that was their version of an MSD 6a box. I never ran a Solid State setup, but the Unilite's work Ok for what they were. The Hi Fire IV was not so great (as compared to an actual MSD). We installed one on my buddy's Mustang, and it worked fine, but the night he installed he pulled a plug wire to check spark and called me over to check out the fat blue spark it threw. This got my curiosity up so I went over to my Chevy II and pulled a wire on my MSD 6a, and there was no comparison! It was like comparing a spark across a plug (his Hi Fire) to an ARC welder (my MSD)!

 

Absolutely! Bosch 922 008 1089 or 00010

 

George,

You and I are almost always on the same page, but this time I can't tell you how wrong you are about the Pertronix conversions. I have installed propbably close to 100 of them over the years, and I can tell you that the ONLY time I have ever seen an issue with them is if they are installed wrong, or too much coil is thrown at them. Period.

I honestly can't even begin to explain the difference in the car now with a couple of days of futzin'. Right now it's running as good as it will get, and it's not even close to the idle quality or power output of the Pertronix, even when the coil was degrading.

Nope, as nostalgic as points are, electronic ignition is the way to go these days. I dig the MSD deal with the points trigger, but I don't have the space on this one to go that route.

 

George,

As stated above, I agree completely with what your saying, but I'm not sure from your reply if you realize Chip isn't running an MSD (or any other) ignition box?

 

Chip if you look at the pic down under the Alt you can see that I mounted the coil to the fuel pump block off plate.

 

Okay guys I doubt if I ever change anything on the dist. on my roadster or 48 Ford. (both early '50s Cad. engines. Top two photos). But the '60 Chevy. dist. in my 48 Plymouth (Bottom photo) is a different story. And you MoPar guys I've heard all the guff about a Chevy engine in a Ply. so save it. The Chevy. 283 in the Plymouth although it is running beautifully with all stock stuff if I can pick up a mpg or two it might be worth some change. So educate me in the best, easiest, cheapest way to upgrade to something better, more reliable and longer lasting than what I have.

Thanks Gary

Oh and you guys following Chips thread and not really building period correct cars. I can tell by your latest posts that you are at least listening to what is being said thus keeping some of the ugly out of whatever rods you are building.

 

You got me there. I haven't run points into an MSD. I have run AN MSD Distributor and Chrysler electronic, however. I'm well aware of how it works, and haven't had reliability issues with either. That still doesn't account for the distaste of the Pertronix stuff. Unless you do something monumentally stupid, as I demonstrated the other night, nothing will kill them. And, as I aluded to earlier, 25 some odd years ago I saw 16 H.P on a dyno out of a high caliber VW bullet with the addition of a simple drop unit and coil. The points were floating and packing it in at about 6000, and that was the much vaunted "black stripe" points of the day. My buddy the dyno owner and engine machinest/builder Mike Fischer suggested I "come out of the cave era, and go with an electronic". instant 7000, and another 16hp at the top end of things. I haven't looked back since. So that's enough on that...

 

Hey Gary,

Don't let anybody mess with you for the small Chevy in a '48... Mine has a WAY expensive, WAY breathed on small Chrysler that came with quite a learning curve and works great, but if I had it to do again it'd be a small Chev. Matter of fact, with a couple hours of engine mount fab work, a small Chev would slide right in. Then, maybe the Chrysler guys would leave me alone and not follow me around.

As to how to improve what you have? Well, I'd dig up a Mallory YC like mine or your other one, and do the Pertronix and matching coil. The distributor has a fairly nice advance curve, and looks good too. You could go the next generation Mallory (YM? I can't remember...) and do the same. These seem to have about 22 degrees of advance built in, which for me works great with about 14 initial and 36 all in at 23-500 or so.

If you know someone who still has a distributor machine, you can have the curve quickened and tailored a bit in what you have, if it's in good shape, and add a Pretronix and coil, or just new points, or even Georges fave, an MSD box and coil triggered by the points. He's absolutely right in that it simply become a low amp switch to tell the box what to do. I love having lots of zap at the plugs to do my bidding. Going this route with what you have also keeps the advantage of the vacuum advance which adds advance in at steady state cruise, and usually nets a bit more mileage on long straight trips.

 

I can neither confirm or deny that their may or may not be......Oh Hell, there's a YC for a SBC on that auction site right now with 1 bid of $49.99 on it. If I remember right, there is a rule we're not supposed to post links to that site on here. If your interested (and too lazy to look it up yourself ;-D), Pm me for the link. There are also several YL series on there, including an NOS on for a Vega!

 

Great, I just ordered one Actually a Bosch 00012 is what it turned out to be.
Thanks.
Larry

 

Okay shit now I am more confused than ever. I think I'll go with "don't trouble trouble" and just drive it.

 

I'll have to somewhat disagree with George...

While points can perform virtually the same function as electronic triggering, you still have wearing parts. Yes, the point contacts don't burn due to the reduced load, but in addition to the rubbing block wear, the points cam can wear and more importantly, the sideways pressure from the points spring will wear the distributor shaft bushing over time. You can also get 'point float' at high RPM, which can be corrected with a stiffer point spring, but this only accelerates bushing wear. I'll agree that there's pretty much zero performance to be had from most 'billet' distributors; I use stock Ford DuraSpark dizzys (with a suitable recurve and a swap to the early style cap) for my 'trigger', and it looks stock....

I do like the MSD 6A boxes; like George, I have seen better idle quality and better mileage compared to the Pertronics.

 

I'm a little confused here, it' okay to use modern technology a long as no one sees it to meet the criteria of the HAMB for pre 65? Seems to me we'd need pre 65 gas and oils, which we don't have anymore so modern components are almost a must have.. If a new steering box is now available, isn't a safer move to buy and use instead of a 50 year old Corvair or a 70 year old Ford box and brake technology has advanced tremendously over the years for the better. I know these things wouldn't matter to a trailer queen, but if you drive them dependability and safety would seem to make the most sense.

 

You are in the wrong place. This is the HAMB. This site is for guys who use old technology, not new disk brakes and modern steering boxes. And, I think pointless ignitions are just pointless.

 

Nope, not in the wrong place! I have no problem rebuilding and using vintage stuff of all stripe, but if a visually suitable new replacement is available that is actually as good or better than the vintage part, by all means, use it. The key here is VISUALLY ACCEPTABLE. I can't freakin' stand it when someone hangs Chinese repro Lancer caps on 60 series wide white radials and stands back and says "Just like back in the day..." Sorry, no it isn't.

And, if my 55 year old Mallory YC offends someone with it's Pertronix hidden inside, with the wire routed to the proper places and such, well, tough. I have come out of this week with a deeply renewed admiration for how well electronic ignitions work by comparison to points. If you can't see that, what's the problem?

Reminds me of a few years ago when a guy "dressed me down" for spending 3000.00for the brand new Tremac in my Plymouth. "Oh Jeez, that's five speeds, it's fragile (?), it's not traditional, you could have had a Muncie for half that... ETC." It became apparent that he had no idea of any correlation between gearing and engine torque output, and furthermore no concept that this car (my ONLY car) had left Phoenix that morning at 5:00am, went 180 miles to Yuma, and now was sitting back in Scottsdale (about twenty mile the other side of Phoenix) that evening for the cruise night I was at. It hadn't just come out of garage entombment for it's once a week 5 mile drive and cruise night.

A few minute later, someone knelt down and started looking under the car at suspension and such, and asked me why I build my cars so low... I told him and gently demonstrated the fact that in that position, the human body is in the perfect position to kick in the ass when they bitch about my "modern" five speed trans, or for that matter, anything that can't be otherwise readily seen on MY car...

Alchemy, I'm not directly singling you out. I just don't understand the backlash at newer technology that is cleverly hidden from sight within our cars. Especially if it is the difference between it being an actual usable, functional car, or a once a week 'cause it's too fragile, dangerous, or cranky show piece.

And if you are looking at the "Bravado" angle of driving vintage stuff, might I remind you that I have just come through a five month long Phoenix summer, with very few days of less than 110 degrees, driving nothing but my 'Bucket... No air conditioned late model at my house these days. It's kinda fun watching everybody taking their roadsters and bikes out of summer storage when mine has never stopped!

 

Let me take a stab at this. We don't all live in a black and white world and if you are interested in safety and reliably you are in the wrong hobby. You need to go out and buy a new Volvo station wagon every year and leave us alone. Their is nobody that has their head up their traditional ass more than me and yet in my '50s roadster I found a late '60 early '70s tranny. that works great and the only way you would know is if I told you or you got under my car. We all do the best we can in a modern world and try not to do ugly stuff like independent suspension and disk brakes on an open wheel car.

 

I figured we were "safe" in here, I should know better than to post any tech on the HAMB. Posts deleted...Period photos piss off the street rodders, tuning tech or any sort of serious discussion about cams/carburation never fails to piss off the rest. I KNEW I was wasting my time typing all that shit. Too bad, I wasn't even close to done yet.

 

I, for one, am intrigued by the point triggered MSD. Pm me with more info, think I'll try it in the 'ol Poncho first. Thanks

 

Brad, I'll dig up the wiring instructions and pm them to you and Gary.