Projects The bucket of ugly! A de-uglifying thread...

Hi Chip and crew, thanks for the photo's of the oversize load in the T.. Now the story of the spray off the front tyres when turning brings all sorts of memories back like the day I'm cruising on a Club run and we are driving down this country lane where earlier in the morning the farmer had moved his cows across the road, By time I was traveling down the mentioned road we had a light drizzle falling and when I spotted the cow effluent all over the road I just thought to myself, hell this isn't going to be pleasant and funnily enough I was correct. Oh the joy of driving fenderless cars....

Ps....I do like your upholstery and especially the back of the seat as it is just like mine at the moment.

 

Ha! Cow dung!!!

 

Psssst. Chip. You're starting to sound Chinese...

 

For those thinking Chip is embellishing his driving through all weather stories, I can confirm he drives his cars everyday, rain or shine.

I used to live about 4 blocks north of him and a block west of Central several years ago. I remember seeing his 47 Plymouth running around town, sometimes with a roof, sometimes with a sedan convertible styled roof (just the top to the back of the deck lid removed like a roll back euro style) all over town.

I remember one year our Monsoons were especially torrential, and seeing chip in traffic just driving like nothing out of the ordinary, rain pouring down in his open air MoPar...like a boss.

You are a local curiosity in more ways than one.

 

One thing is sure. Henry David Thoreau was NOT talking about Chip when he said, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." in his book Walden.

I think Robert Frost, on the other hand, got him pretty well pegged:

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=601 bgColor=#ffffff align=center><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>[SIZE=+1]1. The Road Not Taken[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><!-- END CHAPTERTITLE --></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width=601 bgColor=#ffffff align=center><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=center><!-- BEGIN CHAPTER --><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>T[SIZE=-1]WO[/SIZE] roads diverged in a yellow wood,</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And sorry I could not travel both</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And be one traveler, long I stood</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And looked down one as far as I could</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>To where it bent in the undergrowth;</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Then took the other, as just as fair,</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And having perhaps the better claim,</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Because it was grassy and wanted wear;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Though as for that the passing there</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Had worn them really about the same,</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]10[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And both that morning equally lay</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>In leaves no step had trodden black.</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Oh, I kept the first for another day!</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Yet knowing how way leads on to way,</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>I doubted if I should ever come back.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]15[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>I shall be telling this with a sigh</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Somewhere ages and ages hence:</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>I took the one less traveled by,</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And that has made all the difference.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]20[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

HEY CHIP WHERE IS THE LOIS LANE PLYMOUTH ?

Bob

 

Hidden under the '48! I just welded the top back on after making quite a few mods, as I could never quite get the roll back idea to look exactly as I wanted it to. I could describe the circumstances that led to the top coming off the car, and warn that you should never trust friends to simply allow you to go in and mix another round of Gin and Tonics when multiple Sawzalls are in the yard and shop, but that would be digressive... I drove it for well over three years with either no top or a minimal top I stitched that lasted for but a couple of months before a case of walking pneumonia as the direct result of a RAINY trip to El Paso at Christmas time, girded my resolve to weld the top back on. Not before an evening running it through the worlds largest English wheel ( an A.S.U. tool) to take some of the crown out of it, however. Today it's just my Plymouth with a deceptively sneaky shape that needs to get back on the road soon.

Missy's Dad,
Funny you should say that about Thoreau. I remember being in the back of class when I was about 12 or so, reading that quote, reading it again, letting it sink for a moment and thinking to myself - "Well that sounds like that would kinda suck!"! I'm not entirely sure that it wasn't a good chunk of the reason I have taken the "The road less traveled".

 

Just HOW big is that back lot of yers?
you seem to have at least one of everything



so is it yer Coupe, or do you have a 2 door sedan?

 

Chip I have always taken the road less traveled in regards to building cars. I don't do what everyone else is doing. My father told me ohhhhh so many years ago that when you do what everyone else is doing it is called fashion or a fad. When you do what you think is cool it is called your style!!!
PS
When are we working on that Falcon?????????????

 

Guys were discussing brakes a couple pages back and I’d like to toss 2 cents in. I’ve wondered for two summers why my roadster’s disc/drum brakes are not awesome. It feels like I’m stomping on a brick and the car eventually stops. I’ve been running one of those Corvette knock-off masters and after reading the suggestions, I changed it to the Pinto master Blue One talked about. Oh man, what a difference! I stepped on the pedal like I was used to and locked up the front wheels! Now I have to re-learn how to drive the car.<O</O

 

T-Rod,

That kinda makes sense when you think about it. The Corvettes were 4 wheel drum till '65, and 4 wheel disc from then on. No matter which master cylinder you had (I'd be willing to bet it was '65 and later knock off), the piston was not correctly sized for a disc/drum combo. If I remember it right, drums use a larger piston to move more fluid at less pressure (might have that backwards though, my physics is getting pretty rusty) I've been redoing the brakes on my Plymouth and thought I had the same master cylinder (I swear it looked just like the one on my '75 Stingray), but when I went to get a replacement lid for it, it ended up being '69 Camaro Z28 (I think all disc/drum Camaro master cylinders are the same, but that's O'Reilly's computer listing for it). Glad the Pinto one works so well for you, I filed that info away for my new T when I get to that point. What front brakes does yours run? Mine has a super thin, non vented rotor w/ some kind of VW calipers on it? Gonna try them since I have them, but leaning towards swapping them out for something more modern if they aren't to my liking.

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Blownfuel, you do have that backwards, but the idea is completely correct. Drum brakes need a little less fluid volume to do their job than the disc does, and sometimes use a smaller diameter master cylinder piston to deliver that smaller volume at a higher pressure.

t-rod, YES! That's exactly what I want to come from these discussions here! I want this to be a pool of useful info for these cars that we love! THANKS AGAIN BLUE ONE!

Spent most of the day at Good Guy's Scottsdale with my uncle riding shotgun. Had a great time, saw lots of cool stuff and saw about 200 people take pictures of the car. About a level half of them said "Oh, that's the car from the ad on T.V."!

 

My rear brakes are the ones which came on the Explorer rear axle I'm running, don't remember if they're the 10.5 or 11 inch version. The fronts are GM metric calipers mounted to Ford round back spindles using the cast iron brackets which Speedway and others sell. The rotors are Dodge Aspen to keep the bolt pattern the same all around.

 

THANKS AGAIN BLUE ONE!

Hey, you are welcome. I'm glad someone found the info useful.

I know the Pinto MC works, I have a buddy with a 27 RPU that has front discs, GM intermediate calipers on mopar discs and stock drums on his Maverick rear end.

His car has been on the road for years and stops really well.

 

I had a feeling I did, it makes sense that the smaller drum wheel cylinders use less volume that the disc pistols, but isn't it correct that the smaller master cylinder pistons usually create more pressure? Or is that where I'm getting screwed up? Bernoulies's equation and all that carp..... I've been away from Nuclear Engineering to long!

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Nope, again your right Blownfuel. The smaller bore will deliver a higher pressure at the expense of a lower volume. That's why after doing the master in the bucket last week I'm in search of a 15/16" bore drum/drum unit for the bucket. Higher pressure in this case will result in lower pedal effort.

 

I took a picture of the brakes that came with one of my T's, the Caliper has VW cast in it, but I'm not sure what kind of VW they came off of, or who made the entire brake kit. Look familiar to anybody?

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Oh, that's easy. '67-74 VW type III, or '68-'74 Karman Ghia. It was real common stuff made by Super Bell, Magoo';s and a couple of other aftermarket Street rod companies back in the seventies and eighties. Yours looks to be a Super bell kit.

 

Cool! Thanks Louvers! Good to know it was built by a reputable manufacturer. Super Bell sounds right. The axle is a nice, heavy, chromed tube axle, but I thought Super Bell stamped/ engraved Super Bell in their axles and I don't see that on this one? Could be wrong on this, only ever used one and that was 30 years ago on someone's else's build. One of these days I'm either gonna make it over there or catch you at a show over here (L.A.R.S. maybe?) and meet you ! Should have been over there last weekend (my parents were there for a few days but didn't tell me till Sun. afternoon, and they left Monday morning. Trip was all business.) I wanna bring the Plymouth over to Industrial Chassis and see if the Fat Man front end should stay, or is there enough there to upgrade to the Dakota set up. So far the Fat Man front end has served well, but when I did have a problem, the parts have been impossible to find. Nothing on it is what is supposed to be there. Not really sure who to blame, this is just the fun of buying someone else's car that went through multiple shops being built.



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Nah, I can tell you that Steve wouldn't recommend a Dakota under your car. They are way too wide for our Plymouths. About all that would fit is a Mustang II or perhaps a G.M. A-G body clip or Jag. Both of the latter would be pushing it width wise. The biggest problem with the Fat Man stuff is it's lack of triangulation throughout the clip. His construction techniques have always favored heavier materials over correct geometry and stiffness, and that has always been my main complaint with his stuff. Stiffening the whole thing up via some triangular plates running from the main horizontal of the cross member to the frame rail would be a hell of a start, then the same from the top hats to the top of the rails. Revising the geometry back to original Mustang II specs would be more involved, like cutting the clip off and starting over, but traditionally Fat Man has had no problem opening up the vertical distance between the inner pivots to better fit clip and early frame rail configurations. Maybe your is that way, maybe not, but it controls factors such as roll center, camber curve, anti-dive, and in extreme situations bump steer.

If your car handles as you want, steers as you want, and rides as you want but just wears stuff out quickly, just stiffening it all up will be a boon. If it is vague and kinda annoying to drive, he can certainly cut it back off and build something from scratch that would work much better, but it would still be Mustang II based.

 

Hey gang,

As long as I'm in a kinda tech mode around here, I thought I'd add to another problem solved. Actually, thought I had solved it quite awhile ago!

See, my car has had a little issue with a low speed wobble for a while now, like ever since I put the Halibrands on it last fall. Nothing terrifying or anything, just a small amount of nervousness at low speeds. Really pretty freakin' annoying in traffic sometimes, but not deathly.

This got a bit worse yesterday when I put my uncle in the passenger side and headed out to Good Guy's. The extra weight kinda made stuff a bit more wobbly than it normally is.

Now, in the past months as I have had time to, I have been futzing with everything I could think of to kill this deal once and for all. Adjusted toe in, switched out my steering box to one with a tighter sector shaft bushing, adjusting the steering box, checked king pins, made sure everything was tight, check and adjust caster, etc.

Everything made a bit of difference, but nothing really killed the problem, and it just kept annoying me.

So this morning, I was checking on something else and grabbed the right front wheel, and it gave out a mighty wobble. HHHHHMMMNNNNNNN, Bearings loose? Nope. Tie rod end bad? Nope. Wait a minute, the steering arm is wobbling on the spindle!!! But I thought...

Here's the deal. Ya know those spindle arms that we all buy from Speedway, So-Cal, Pete and Jake's, and a host of other companies? They have some fairly specific needs as far as hardware to bolt them in place, yet the hardware is seldom ever included with the arms. One that is commonly used is a socket head allen screw. Now I myself said a few pages back that I LOVE aircraft type hardware and socket and button head allen stuff... Just not here! Here, a socket head doesn't have enough support around it's head to firmly anchor the steering arm to the spindle.

What's the solution? Some extra thick grade 8 washers, carved for the occasion, and the proper depth 1/2" fine thread grade eight bolts, oh, and lock washers too!

The net result is Day and night different!!! About half the looseness of the allen head deal! Simple, but it makes a huge difference!

Oh, the stupid part? See, I had ruled this deal out long ago, because early on I discovered the allens on the drivers side, went out and bought the proper bolts, washers, lock washers, and did the drivers side. I even photographed it and intended to post it here for you guys.... Forgot that I ran out of time that day and didn't get the passenger side done! Face palm slap! There was the two "extra bolts, washers, and lock washers in the bolt bin, waiting to go.

Chased my tail for months for no reason... Typical!

 

Thanks, I wasn't sure I would need to go as far as cutting the front end off, that's just my frustration of spending the weekend chasing unobtanium grease seals so I can put my front end back together. I actually wanted his opinion on what the front end needs and wanted to discuss the Dakota stuff vice late model Crown Vic for my '55 F-100. This is getting too off topic for this thread, so I'll either start it it's own thread or pm it to you after I go take some pics.
Thanks again,
Kurt

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Nah, it's fine. Give Steve a call at 602 278 6800 during the week and he will give you a run down on stuff. We have discussed this lots over the years, and if he is doing his kits again, under an F100 from that era a Dakota is THE way to go. If not, a Jag is the second choice. The Vic is just way too wide to run traditional wheels and such with.

 

I'll call him. I think a jag would be too light duty for my build, I'm building it to tow one of these. I want to lower it some, butt not as low as most, and definitely not low enough to require c'ing the frame.

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some one famous told me not to use a flat washer AND a lock washer. It is not effective,
the lock washer , locks against the washer, not against what you want it to.

I don't make the rules, just pass it along...

 

Hmmmmnnnnnn, never heard that one. I could see it though, especially with hardened stuff. In either case, with the thick washer beneath that has been "tailored" to fit the spindle, there is no way the washer could turn and loosen the whole shooting match in this particular case. That, and I kinda go for the belt and suspenders method myself though, as there is a drop of red Locktight on the threads too.

The whole idea I was trying to convey, (and none to eloquently, I might add) is spreading out the load on the ends of the steering arms with the large, thick washers and larger bolt heads. You can't believe the difference in rigidity once they are in place! It's so easy to go to the socket head allens simply because they fit the register in the spindle for the brake backing plate so nicely. They just don't provide enough clamping force spread out over enough area to adequately stabilize the steering arms.

 

Just to add that if you wanted something MII based that would be much better than the Fatman stuff which as previously mentioned is really not all that good for various reasons you could go to a universal crossmember kit from Heidts.

Properly installed it has the proper geometry that NL nentioned above.

 

I was taught that the use of a flat washer was to increase the locking area of the bolt and the spring washer was to lock the head of the bolt to stop it from working loose. I agree with Chip, one is better to have more surface covered by a good fitting washer bolt combination then rely on pretty Allen head screws which are a higher tensile strength then a grade 8 bolt but don't have the coverage of a bolt head.

 

i agree more area is better, and Chip, nipped the flat washer to make it "STAY"