Projects The bucket of ugly! A de-uglifying thread...

It really is difficult for me to wrap my head around. I keep hearing this for guys in the states, and I'm not saying I dont believe it, its just SO different here. Man, its less than 100 miles from one end of the Fraser Valley to the other, and the last time I went to the far end was last year, when Pensive Scribes truck died on the way here from Alberta, and I had to drive out to where his truck had quit to unload my Desoto motor from his trailer.
Even last night, we went out to visit our friends in Vancouver (thats a trip into the big city for us) 1/2 an hour away, better than half of that on surface streets. I would say probably 95% of my driving is on 40 mph suburban roads, with a light every 1/4 mile or so.
Even if I do travel to a surrounding town, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the trip will be on the freeway with most of the traffic doing around 60 MPH, and the balance of it will be on smallish town surface streets and semi-rural 40 mph speed limit roads.

aside from all that stuff, I think most guys throw those gear ratio numbers around without ever really grasping what they mean in mechanical terms. A gear ratio is a lever, plain and simple. When you say 3.08 what that means is that in any given gear, the rear axle ratio is multiplying your engines torque 3.08 times. When you say 4.10, that means it is multipling your engines torque by 4.1.
So lets say you have a typical hot street small block/t350 that makes 400 ft lbs at peak torque with a 4.10 gear behind it, and you lay on it in 2nd gear. Assuming you end up around the rpm at which peak torque occurs, you have 400ft lbs X 1.52 X 4.10 = 2492.8 ft lbs of torque available to accelerate the car. Now, for the sake of simplification, for the time being lets ignore the fact that with the 3.08 when you downshift to second, you will be at a lower rpm, and have even LESS torque available, and just simply look at it in terms of the leverage available due to the respective rear axle ratios.
400 ft lbs X 1.52 X 3.08 = 1872.64 ft lbs. Now lets take these numbers, and calculate how much more engine torque you need to compensate for the taller gear.
So divide 2492.8 by 3.08, divide that by 1.52, and we get (rounded off) 532.5 ft lbs. So, ignoring the rpm difference, which increases the advantage of the 4.10 gear EVEN MORE, you need to make another 132 ft lbs than the guy with the 4.10 gear, just to stay beside him when he punches it. So, I guess if you build a 509 or bigger, and make DAMN SURE you dont choose off some complete fruitcake (like me for instance) with a BIG BLOCK AND 4.10s or (God help you) 4.56s you should at least be able to STAY WITH the guy with the 350 and the 4.11s. A little food for thought there, just to put the performance difference in perspective. Sucks when your "big, bad" 383 stroker flat gets its ASS HANDED TO IT by some guy with a 327, dog dish hubcaps, and an auto on the column...
I know, I know, the adults on here have long since outgrown this sort of stuff, and would never behave so irresponsibly, but I am still an infantile idiot, and I'm not alone, so be careful whom you goose the throttle beside...

 

In my old life I used to drive around the east coast and Midwest lots, and I was shocked at the fact that there were still 55 MPH speed limits anywhere! I got on the freeway once leaving Cleveland bound for Buffalo New York, and just settled in at what I thought was a reasonable speed. being from out here I really honestly didn't look at the speed limit signs, 'cause they all are 75, right? A few minutes out of town and I got pulled over. "Do you know how fast you were going"? Yes! About seventy-ish, 'cause everybody was being a bit cautious. "Do you know what the speed limit is here"? I assume 75...? "License please". He looks at my license and says, "well that makes sense, you're from one of those big states out west"! "We HAVE speed limits out here, unlike you folks, and it's 55...". Really? You aren't kidding?! I haven't seen a 55MPH limit since 1986! "just slow down"! Yes sir!

That was my introduction really to driving any where outside of the Western states.

 

A T bucket is missing something when you have tall tires and 3.00 gears. Biggest drawback to 8" rears is the stock gearing. Picked up a couple '57-'59 9" rears, one 3.42 and one 3.89, gonna try the 3.42 with a T-350 and 8.20 tires in my '35 and save the deeper one for use with a OD tranny in the '40.

 

When you guys say surfaced streets, is that like our tarseal, bitumen chip sealed surface you are referring too ? I believe a lot of the early highways were concrete surface but surely that has changed due to the cost compared to bbitumen ? It never ceases to amaze me when somebody mentions the legal speed limits on your highways compared to our 60 mph or 100 kmph limit we have here altough in saying that most of our roading system doesn't allow for even that sort of speed. We still have a lot of rural roads that are unsealed which makes for a totally different approach to how one drives also .
Good information on the diff gearing also, thanks Mr Falcongeorge.

 

Even when I drive in Washington state, i dont really find it that much different form here, but most of Washington probably has more of a rural element than where you live.Except for Seattle hell, if you are on the I-5 right in Seattle, sometimes you are lucky to be moving at all!
Another comment about 3.08ish type rear gears, they REALLY limit what you can do in the way of an engine combo, right from the get go, if I am faced with that sort of a rear gear, I am going to back off 15 psi on the cranking compression I target, as that type of gear forces the engine to move through the lower rpm range where detonation is likely to occur much more slowly. In my experience, final drive ratios (and to a lesser degree, torque converter selection) have a very big effect on octane tolerance. If the engine is able to build rpm quickly through the power band, you can run substantially more cylinder pressure for a given amount of octane, relative to an engine that is being lugged.
The final drive ratio in od is less of an issue, as you generally arent likely to be in od at WOT for an extended period of time unless you are at Bonneville..

 

No, we are referring to streets in town at ground level. In most cities in North America, when the freeway passes through large cities, it is 20'+ off the ground on top of concrete pylons.

 

Phoenix sounds like Houston. It's not really big, it's just spread out. On a good day of cruising, I'll put 100 miles on my T, just driving around ONE section of town. I'm just running 3:73 gears and I kill on the street, but when I get on the freeway, which is like Phoenix, I usually stick to the slower lanes. It's 65 mph here, so everyone does 80. So, I'm a stop light terror. Shit, nobody said Milner had the fastest car on the interstate! Besides, the jerks around here are deadly on the streets, multiply that by 10 on the freeway. So, I only get up there, when it's REAL early on a Sunday.

I'll never, EVER, go with anything other than 3:73+. It's more fun ruling the trenches. A few guys I've talked to, with new cars, always say they're (insert what ever shit they're selling now) is FASTER. I always agree. Then, I tell them, "But I'm way QUICKER." I like it that way. The race is usually over in the first 200 feet.

 

We call 'em, "HIGHways". But we leave off the "GH" because we're AMERICANS!!!

 

Here in BC, the speed limit on the freeway between cities is 75, but its lower where it passes through cities, if you live in the bottom of the Fraser Valley like I do, the typical speed on the freeway is around 60 or less, as there are on and off ramps every few hundred feet, and its pretty busy. Its rare to spend much time on the freeway here in the lower Fraser Valley. The Fraser Valley is less than 100 miles long in its entirety, and only about 30 miles wide, with 90 percent of the population concentrated in the last 40 miles before the pacific ocean. I am only about 1/2 an hour from the Pacific Ocean with the Fraser River winding through it, and an impressive mountain range visible to the north from my back yard. I might bitch about the price of real-estate, and the crowding, but its really a pretty damned nice place to live. Most people commute less than 30 miles, and usually, you will be on surface streets, then on the freeway for maybe 6-8 exits, then off again and on surface streets. Hell, my wifes hair salon is 6 miles from our house, and its ALL 30 to 40 MPH speed limits with a light at LEAST every 1/2 mile or so. Man, driving here with 3.08s would be SO boring, and with 4.10s or 4.56s that same 6 mile commute is uh well, "fun" even if the gas mileage might suffer a little. nudge, nudge, wink wink, say no more...

 

Word. If you are running 400+ hp, sticky dots and a 4 series gear, ALL races are over in the first 500 feet. 98% give up by the time you hit the crosswalk on the other side of the intersection. Seriously.

The remaining 2% are also running a 4 series gear and sticky dots, and then ITS ON BABY!!!

 

Yup, lot's alike! You guys have about 200,000 more folks than us and are the 4th largest metropolitan area in the U.S., and we are the 5th largest but sit on a MUCH larger land mass. Just like you it's nothing to put 100 miles down just doing errands around west phoenix and never ever leave the city - or hell, even the area. Judy drives 28 miles one way to work, just in another part of town. I just simply will not compromise the top end of a car, period. The one and really only fear I hold in this life is people coming up from behind me. My racing mentor told me once when I asked how to keep out of tangles with other cars - "Stay out in front!". Very simple.

One of the very best/worst trips I ever took was a club run over to L.A.R.S. about four years ago. That year we went in VERY traditional cars, and our flotilla consisted of three flathead powered cars and two that were early Ford running gear with small blocks adapted. We settled in to the right lane at about 65, and watched the traffic blow past at 90-100 (sometimes both in the same space!) in the left lane. I saw people going that fast texting, watching movies on the dash, reading books, and possibly having sex in one case. All doing stuff but driving, yet with us in the right lane as we should, we were getting horns blown at us and fingers thrown. I was damn near a complete and total nervous wreck by the time we hit L.A. 7 hours later. (just as an aside, ElPolacko's green truck and my Plymouth had done the same 360 mile trip a year earlier in 3 1/2 hours without tickets or incident...) Great time and show as always while we were there, but NEVER again on that trip there and back. Nothing worse than being in your "all power full, evil hot rod" watching little kids in a mini van looking out the back window disappear into the future ahead of you. I LOVE very traditional cars, but they really have no place on most of the roads I drive on these days, safely. Fortunately, it's easy enough to hide a 5 speed most of the time, and adjust rear end gearing to make things work with todays speed with out altering the out ward appearance of the car.

Now, if this trans does go south in the near future, there is a very strong possibility it will get replaced with a 200/r4, that would make a 3.73 a very usable rear gear around these parts. then stuff will get much quicker.

To answer the other statement George, Washington is it's own little weird entity in the Western states. I used to load the Plymouth up about now every year and head up to the coastline to work until September. The one thing I never got to use up there, (well two, really) was the Plymouth's 5 gear in it's TREMEC, and my air conditioning! It's sort of a very strange anti-car of atmosphere with the general population that doesn't put any value on driving skills of even road construction. It's about the only place I can think of that has the lower speed limits out here. My friends in the lower south west corner used to marvel at the fact that I would routinely drive 50 miles one way to go do my weekly business overnight mailings... Until they came here and saw how much I drive just around town...

 

You know Chip, I've always planned to drive down & visit you in person one of these days, I'm starting to think that if its ok with you, I will probably just fly down...

 

Chip you comment about those in the North west who don't drive much really is true. I was born and raised in Tillamook Oregon. Most of my high school classmates still live close by. If they forget something at the store that they stopped by on the way home they will not drive the 3 miles back to town to get it. Or go to the big city, Portland, because it is 90 miles away!! Hell I tell them I drive 275 miles round trip 4 times a year just to go to a swap meet!!!

 

You are welcome down at any time either way!

Been through Tillamook many times in the Plymouth coming home from Washington. I really do like the northwest...

 

But then there is the desert side of Washington which is a whole different attitude. Look at those hills in my avatar.

 

i second this. Actually, as soon as you head inland it's a whole different deal. It's just the coastal area that is infested with total f$&@ing knobs.
If you think Seattle is infested with idiots, you should check out Vancouver, it's ten times worse. I'd bet there a more Smart cars per person than anywhere else in North America.

 

I loved living in Kennewick, lot's of great roads and good people, and the rivers - they were great. 'Merica!

 

Until they breach the banks and flood the whole damned county. Used to see that all the time just south of Bellingham...
But yes, lots of rivers here too, mountains, forests, GREAT fly fishing, hiking, man it is a great place to live, once you get used to rain. It really is beautiful country.

 

My morning commute. This is about a mile from my house. If I peer through all the cedar and douglas fir in my backyard, this is pretty much the same view from my deck. Takes a LITTLE of the sting out of paying 395K for a 2000 sq. ft bi-level on a 8000 sq ft lot...

 

LOL... It didn't used to be this way. Blame it on the infestation (in the words of Emmett Watson, a Seattle newspaper columnist back then) of 'Californicators' who moved up here in the mid/late 70s (and we're still getting them) who have never learned to drive in the NW. Nothing instills confidence in your fellow drivers like stopping at a store on a snow day and hearing some idiot with Cal plates asking 'how do you put this thing into four wheel drive?'... LOL. True story....

AC and overdrive? Yep, generally not needed on the 'wet side' (although with climate change, AC is becoming more useful for the natives) but if you avoid the greater Seattle/Tacoma and Vancouver areas you'll miss most of the knuckleheads on the highways and be treated to some of the most beautiful scenery anywhere. It's also the only place in the lower 48 where there's NO lethally poisonous snakes/insects... LOL!

The only downside for car guys is the rain and rust, but you can't have everything.... LOL.

 

Please be sure gang, I wasn't picking on western Washington in particular. I spent about 7 summers there working and driving up and down the coast and sound from Illwaco to Bellingham, and have tons of friends up there. Lots of favorite places as well like Port Townsend and the Snoqualmie Falls and North Bend area. Beautiful place to be, but the drivers do suck for about the 80 percentile.

The reason I picked at there was that George had mentioned that driving down there was very similar to what he encountered at home. Truth be told it's like many places back east, too. So I can sometimes understand people not understanding why I need my cars set up a certain way. What works for long distance desert cruises at speed doesn't really work as well up there. What is fine up there is completely impossible to live with down here, and isolates you to one small section of a huge city all around you. That to me is very claustrophobic. Gotta be able to jump in the car and have it do what is needed, when it's needed.

Truth be told, even though I have made a secondary "living" at times in my life with lots of illicit street drags and some legitimate, I really don't care for a drag car inspired daily. With the 'Bucket, that almost impossible to get away from, because that was such a strong element of the time at which I chosen to emulate. But in truth, my Plymouth is set up more along the lines on what could be called a "supercar" or "pro touring" type build. Yes it'll run high twelves in the quarter, and if I tweeked stuff and set the chassis up a bit better for that sort of thing, it would probably go much faster.... But to me, a quick drive chasing a late Corvette up Az. 89 up the switchbacks by Yarnell, or sharing a perfect misty morning's run with a late Ferrari near Mendocino on HWY 1 is allot more fun than going straight. Or even better, doubling the posted speeds on hairpin turns going up 550 from Durango to Silverton, or doing the same along the Willapah river in Washington. Done all of that, and have great stories from each adventure.

Any way, enough drivel from me as to how I like to do things. I have some tech to finish up so I can post, and a pattern to lay out for a customer....

 

Go to Kamloops/Cache Creek/Vernon about 200 miles NE of Vancouver, and I can find you some of those! It IS BEAUTIFUL the 30/40% of the time its not pissing down!

Just thought of something, with the scenery around here, why would you WANT to drive everywhere at 90 MPH?

 

EXACTLY!

 

jeeez you jokers are spoilt, down here you go 4 kph over the posted limit and they'll nail your hide to the wall with as many tickets as they can stick you with ask me how I know

 

Nope. ya can't fault the northwest for being beautiful! Like I said. I have so many drives up there that I love for many reasons.

I do have to laugh a bit though, and consider it compare and contrast.... Every year when I made it up there, for the first couple of weeks I was there, there was NO way I could relax! TOO MANY FREAKIN' TREES!!!! See, you guys are used to GREEN. I was raised in the desert, and will remain in this place until I am buried in it - LOVE my Sonoran desert! But, I'm used to being able to see that spot of light 65 miles out that says there is a small town on the horizon for gas or a Coke. Up there ya got sooooo damn many trees you can't see a damn thing!!! Every year I was dealing with very extreme claustrophobia for the first couple of weeks. And the one thing that a desert guy knows about trees is that stuff that wants to kill ya and eat ya lives in trees! Well, that and you'll find a source of water nearby...

 

As an AZ transplant who now resides in Oregon you guys have it pretty pinned down. One thing is in Phoenix if you have a 25 mile commute it really only takes 25 min from door to door if not less and that's with parking and walking. Here in Portland my 7 mile commute takes 15 minutes on the best day and to go to my wife's practice 23 miles away takes at least 45 min.

I love the seasons and the views but hate the rust and rot!

also rust free in Oregon is the same thing as major rust in Arizona. I have run out of fingers and toes to count how many times I have gone to check out a rust free body only to find swiss cheese and dimples on everything.

 

I was born here, from the time I was 4 I lived on 2.5 acres of river frontage, literally BURIED in the forest. When you drive by my childhood home, all you see is a gravel driveway disappearing into the bush. About a decade ago, I went to SE China Shanghai and Suchow. I had a TOTAL GAS, Great nightlife, BEST friggen food I have EVER had, anywhere in the world, STUNNING women, dressed to the nines everywhere you looked. It was REALLY great, but I really felt homesick, like something was wrong, couldn't put my finger on it. Took me until the 4th day to realize what it was, I hadn't seen a single tree(sure, they have what us NWesters call "shrubs" I mean a proper TREE) the entire time I had been there. When I flew back home, and looked out of the window at the alaskan panhandle, and the coast of BC, and all those forests stretching back to the horizon, I felt like "That was fun, but MAN, its good to be home!

 

My first ship went to Seattle for "Fleet Week". Seattle let's the Navy party for a week and we promised not to tear anything up. We lied. My good buddy Scott and I, hooked up with a couple local girls, who invited us to spend the weekend with them. Well, these young ladies lived just outside of Seattle, in what can only be described as, the woods. Long driveway, a couple turns, then a house sitting in a clearing. Freaking awesome.

I was raised in upstate NY and Scott was from Buffalo, NY. We were right at home. That was my first time in Seattle and the PNW and I loved it. We were there for a week and it didn't rain, until the day we left. Beautiful country.

 

Ok Fred, now I KNOW your bullshitting us!!

 

C'mon! You guys know it ONLY rains about 9 months out of a year. We caught you in a drought.