The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Randy : did you run a distributor? plumbing is worse than tight there with a 1" spigot lined up with the front water passage in the head.

 

yes. [but you must build a new overhead cam head and cut new valve pockets in the pistons.] For that much trouble you'd have to have an awfully good reason to want the head reversed.

ps: the headbolts are not symmetric in the head.

 

Dick, There has to be a steam/ air outlet at the high end [front/ top] of the head. A small one would be enough to bleed the air out so the head will cool.

You could plumb the small line upward into a header tank if nothing else.
I have always had to use header tanks.

 

I'd also be worried about twisting the centers out of those old frail looking Ford wire wheels .

 

I looked up sea moss green...this is what I found. Definitely a stealth color.

 

Hmmm, guess it's time to update my personal info- the Quad4's been gone for a while ('course I still have a Zetec tucked away for giggles) !

Right now I'm knee deep in '28 Chevy parts for the speedster build- any other ideas will have to wait, but I like everything I see in this thread!!!

 

dennis,

I like your picture of sea moss green but the engine below is more what i was takling about.

As for the spoked wheels and 300 hp, I am having the Kelsey Hays 40 spoke wheels straighteded and trued by a professional.

I am initially building these cars with about 225 hp and will only turbo them If I find a need for crazy fast.

The original 1935 Ford 32 spoked 16" wheels have been sucessfully used on many hotrods with Olds, Buick, Cadilac and Chrysler V8s.

The 28-29 Model A's used 30 spoke 21" wheels. The 30-31's used 30 spoked 19" wheels.

The Kelsey Hayes 16" 40 spoke wheels that I am using on the rear are actually Chrysler wheels.

When the Model A Ford was introduced there was some concern about the wire spoked wheels not being strong enough.

Ford demonstrated the spoke strength by hanging a Model A Ford sedan from a single spoke from the ceiling at the introduction of their 1928 fords.

If 1 spoke can support 2300 lbs then 32 spokes have a combined strength of 73,600 lbs. Spoked wheels look more frail than they actually are.

I have talked to many hot rodders who have had good luck with both the Ford and the Kelsey 16" wheels and they all have said thet the failures are caused by people using bent, damaged or rusted wheels that should not have been used in the first place.

These wheels are 75 years old and most of them have been exposed to the worst conditions imaginable.

The better ones can be serviced and be made servicable for light reasonably powered cars.

Dick

 

I'd call the engine teal green. the lady's dress is the exact color of seaweed [algae].

My 35 ford wheels look frail, but with narrow tires, one can only transmit a limited amount of torque.
Probably a more serious issue is that they are not safety rims...I still have to run them.

 

Dick

I going to use a Edelbrock rpm head and Scat rods, mutch later in time if the engine will work I think I will buy a Kase P-51 head.

/ Johan

 

The front hole takes an extra tight adapter to miss the distributor.
dennis

 

dennis,

I think I would find a short street ell and 90 degree it toward the front.

Then I would install a cap or plug and drill and tap it for a radiator drain valve.

Then when you fill the system you could run the engine for a minute or two to circulate the coolant then open it to see if there is any trapped air in the system.

I am going to run the engine so level that I think that the water pump will purge the air out the rear of the head without any air purge anyway.

But I might put a purge valve in the front anyway to be sure.

Dick

 

I just spent a good long while skimming through the entire 18 pages of this thread - great stuff. I really like these on-going threads/discussions. I've always been intrigued by the Mercruiser w/BBF head since I heard of them 25 years ago, but never really knew much about them.

One thing I see folks asking about is water pumps. While I have zero experience with these engines, I have seen a belt-driven pump that may work - I don't know if it will flow enough for this application, but perhaps a modified impeller is possible. it was designed as an aftermarket item for early British-Ford 4-cyl engines that didn't have a pump at all - they're an inline design and aren't cheap, but still available new from Small Ford Spares in the UK. Current pricing is about £150 (~$240 at current rate approaching 1.6) plus shipping, but probably easier to adapt than many others.

Sorry for the tiny pic, but if you go to:

http://www.ford-aquaplane.co.uk/part.phtml?PartID=80

You can enlarge the pic.

 

I have spent the last few days making motor mounts. I chose to use chevrolet V6 engine mounts as the rubber was fully surrounded by metal as a safety factor. The V6 mounts are smaller than the V8 mounts.
Now that I'm done, I can report on things which were needlessly difficult.
The main unforeseen disadvantage with this design is that there is little tolerance for misalignment. I think that mounts like Dick's "hotrod mount" would involve much less calculation and measurement of angles as the mount itself would take up inaccuracies. For that type you figure the angles and off setts and just bolt on a bent 1/4" plate which has a single hole in the end for the rubber part. Its shape is maintained with a welded in single central gusset.
Instead of that simpler way I made two angled 1/4" side plates, and a back plate for my block. It had to be aligned in a jig for welding. I added a 1/8" gusset between the two side plates for stiffness. The result was bigger and uglier than I expected but it is strong, accurate and compliant. It will be hidden by sheet metal so I can get by with it.
If I had it to do over, I'd use a mount more like Dick's as that would be simpler to make.
The passenger side mount has to be offset rearward to miss the oil filter. The fuel pump is blocked off anyway so there is a lot of room. I offset both mounts rearward. It is all to the good as they will carry a little more of the transmission weight.

 

I think you are too modest- that's a very decent looking piece.

Are you ever going to show us the vehicle this is going into?

 

dennis,

I like that motor mount, it looks bullet proof.

What year Chevy V6 does it fit?



Anyone running an automatic behind the 470?

I received a private message from a newbe on hamb stating

"I have a '57 Willyz CJ-5 that has the mercruiser 470 in it and is mounted to some oddball gm tranny."

and asking

"My question (and I have searched high and low for the answer to this) is what flexplate and starter I would need to use to hook it up to a th350 that I have for it."

Since this is a private message I have not used his name not that it matters much in this case.

It might be a case of him not wanting to jump in with a Jeep question on a HotRod thread but I think he needs to be bolder to get more information because I don't know about automatics behind these engines.

Will machining 5/8" off of the bellhousing flange help?

What flywheel works with the Ford crank pattern and has the right number of teeth?

What flexplate to use?

I don't even know what other questions to ask.

If you have any answers please post them for this guy and others who might want to run Automatic Transmissions.

Dick

 

Add spacers between flexplate and convertor. I see Coan has adapter to support convertor nose if it moves back too far for support by crank May need machine work as not sure how GM snout diameter relates to Ford. I'd be tempted to just rely on flexplate. $100 will get you an aftermarket neutral balance dual convertor pattern flexplate.
http://www.prwonlinestore.com/small...verterboltpattern-157teethneutralbalance.aspx

 

This shows how I got out of the bind that I was in:
I could not use a regular 1" street ell as it was way too big. I used an equivalent sold in hydraulic shops. They are much more compact. A 1" ell was still too big so I had to go down to 3/4". Even then I had to mill about 1/4" to 3/8" off one end of it and that was not enough so it had to be tapered to clear the front intake runner. [ After cutting that much off of it, a 3/4" tap must be used to enlarge its interior diameter].
Now to avoid the clearance problems I encountered, you might drill in at an angle. This will give more clearance for both the distributor and the intake manifold runner.

 

Ugly but strong.

I thought it was about 7 years old but from the condition of the rubber I'd say ten+ years.
As far as I can tell chevy has used that same design since 1978. The V8 mounts are a lot bigger, but as the merc and the V6 are closer in weight I felt these would work and be softer. Being out from the engine like they are doubles the ability of a soft mount to resist torque but as that makes it no stiffer in the vertical direction it should absorb vibration very well.

 

The Mercruiser flywheel crank pattern is that of a small block Ford. I just used my mercruiser flywheel. Ford clutch parts bolt right on. A smallblock Ford flexplate, will fit the crankshaft and should fit the starter, but from that point he would be on his own as he still has to match transmission input end dimensions and bellhousing bolt pattern to his mercruiser engine. Phil's suggested dual bolt pattern flexplate would allow bolting to the GMC torque converter and as he said, shimming (or making an adaptor) should deal with an overlong input end dimensions on the transmission.

 

The marine flywheel is not meant to be used in a way that has friction applied to it. I would wonder if the metalurgy of it is right for that use...?
In the marine application there is a drive coupling, shaped somewhat like an hourglass, with a rubber insert- that's what transmits power.
It greatly surprises me that a clutch pressure plate bolts to it...??

 

I would guess, that they would use a "flywheel" , on a marine engine, for the same purpose, for the "inertia" of it or the kinetic energy it imparts..............Do you really think they would go to the expense, of a totally different type, (and material), when one already exists, that would "fill the bill"?

Just curious.

 

From the looks of the ones that I have they don't look like they would work with a clutch because they would have to be turned down for a friction surface and drilled for a pressure plate.

I suspect that dennis had to have some work done on his flywheels if he used the original Mercruiser flywheels Unless Mercury Marine at one time used some ford flywheels drilled for their engine coupler.

I think that the Mustang flywheels have a surface engineered for long service and good friction and heat resistance.

I expect that the Mercruiser engineers made the Mercruiser 470 flywheels to handle the ring gear, provide the flywheel inertia and a bolt hole pattern for the engine coupler which is a steel hub that has a rubber insert and an inner socket that mates with the power shaft spline on the outdrive.

This hub is essentially a vibration and shock mount to smooth out the shock of when the drive is shifted into and out of gear.

Anyway I bought a couple of Hays clutch, pressure plate and flywheel combos on ebay that were very reasonable and I am sure that on my light Model As they will hold up very well.

 

yep that's what mine looked like... before I threw it away. lol

I don't know what's involved in manufacture of a flywheel, but there may be surface hardening procedures done, or material choices made...
No, I don't know [that it's different], but if they went to the effort to make their own, as above, rather than contract with a OE supplier, or someone such as Pioneer or the like, and simply install passenger car 'wheels, then I would not count on them being alike in any way.
They were very concerned with vibration, and a softer steel might be more resistant to cracks over years of use. This would be just one example of a reason to differ from passenger cars materials. Cost may be another, I just don't know.

As mine is more of a performance build, I am going to ignore advice and use an aluminum flywheel for an 86-95 mustang, from Gripforce.com. They have very reasonably priced knocks offs of Fidanza flywheels, as well as reasonably priced clutches. I think the flywheel with iron insert was ~202, and clutch kit was $94, plus shipping.

 

I did nothing but scrape the Mercuriser paint off the smooth side (shown) of the flywheel and bolt a pressureplate onto it. As you can see, it already had threaded holes which I found were an exact fit for a 1984 ford mustang pressureplate.
Now I'm wondering also as its front surface looks like the casting posted a few posts up.

 

Ordinary grey cast iron, or (rarely) nodular cast iron are the only two materials used for all flywheels and brake discs. There is nothing special about it, and no heat treating is involved.

The very hard wearing surface occurs naturally from the rubbing and work hardening. Exactly the same process that occurs in your cylinder bores to make a very hard wear resistant surface for the piston rings.

If it has suitable tapped holes for a pressure plate, it probably was originally a part used with a clutch on some other engine, and entirely suitable for that use for us again.

An aluminium flywheel will work fine in a light car with a suitably low total first gear ratio. The only time that a heavy flywheel helps is in starting off, maybe when facing up a steep hill, (or launching in a drag race). But with suitable diff and first gear ratios in a fairly light car, you don't need much help from a heavy flywheel, and aluminium will make for a more lively engine.

If the flywheel already on the engine has suitable tapped holes for a pressure plate I would use it as it is.
If not, an aluminium aftermarket flywheel with an iron friction facing would be what I would be using.

 

There ya' go.

 

Dennis,

Your engine must have been used in an other application than in an inboard outdrive Mercruiser unless it might have been an earley engine with some kind of a plate bolted to the holes where you are bolting your pressure plate.

The picture that I posted has a second set of holes just outside of the holes that attach it to the crank.

These holes are used to bolt the coupler that connects to the stearn drive unit.

The picture that you posted of your flywheel doesn't have those holes.

Was there a large disk that bolted to the outer bolt holes and had holes to mount the engine coupler onto?

 

Dennis,

After looking at your picture it appears that someoue might have turned the flywheel over and drilled it for a pressure plate.

I went out and looked at one of mine and the holes for the engine coupler go clean thru the flywheel.

The only problem with that is that the starter gear might not fully engage the ring gear.

 

Dick, I do not know what was bolted on as I bought my engine disassembled. I left the drive coupler and exhaust manifold as I had no use for them. The flywheel was in excellent condition and appeared to be painted with Mercury black paint.

 

Anyone care to predict how long till we have a video of a running engine in car?