The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Mr Beck posted well on the distributor.. I think Randy once wrote that he would part with his. I made up a "Frankendistributor" from diverse parts and it was the first one that worked well for me.
My car weighs 1800 lbs with the 470 in it vibration was never a problem for it but I did use soft chevy v6 mounts.

 

Here is a photo of the one of a kind crankshaft in my friend Doug Lee's engine. http://propan.net/

 

As you said it is imperative that the cyulinder is supported around its top. Since your bore is cracked there will not be sufficiant support for the sleeve. When you press the sleeve in your crack will open. A press fit is needed. Unless you weld up the top of the block you will not have enough support. With the cost of buying the aluminum, having it cut, welding it in, decking the block, purchasing the sleeve, boring the block, and whatever, it is cheaper to replace the block. IF you were going for all out performance and doing all 4 cylinders in a bigger bore it might be worth while. The Doug Lee motor pictured above has had all new sleeves installed, but he used another method to close the top of the block.

As far as epoxy goes, I wouldn't trust it. How would you do just the top of the block without filling it? See the following post about epoxy.

 

I was just trying to epoxy pieces into my block to attach a lifter cover to. I used 2 types for test purposes, Devcon 10240 and Propoxy 20. Neither would handle the bolt torque needed to secure the cover. These are paste/putty type exoxy. I would like to test the 3M 08115 epoxy. That is the stuff that Ford approved for gluing aluminum panels on their new truck. It would be a $100 test for me, $40 for the epoxy and about $60 for the gun.
Has anyone had any success with other brands of epoxy?

I am now looking at 2 other methods of attaching the lifter cover. #1) drill the rail around the perimiter and attach it with 6-32 screws. #2) Do as Doug Lee did and weld in aluminum tabs.

If your wondering why am I not using the stock bosses to attach the cover, I am going to use a roller cam. The bosses interfere with the lifter tie-bars. I have machined the bosses out of the block and machined the radius off of the edge of the block at the gasket surface.

 

OH! I want one of those! But I don't think I want to pay for it... Doug is my hero. He has everything I want in my motor. I want to hear and see it run soooooo bad.

 

If you are serious enough to want a roller cam, you should build it like a race engine. That means keyed lifters that don't need tie bars, external oil pump or dry sump, and crank trigger with a belt drive and distributor ran off the cam gear. Check out the engine that Clint Neff is running in NHRA Comp eliminator. It also has been decked about 1" and a deck plate mounted to allow any 4.900 bore space head you want to run, he uses an E460 head. His blocks are just like the one in the pic above with sleeves and main girdles also. If not doing all this, it's just asking for failure IMO.

 

You are absolutely right. The split cylinder would provide no support for the sleeve and from my calculations, the sleeve by itself is not strong enough. I have a set of Allis Chalmers wet sleeves which are 1/2" inch thick, they'd be strong enough! (Not that they could be made to fit)

 

My original oil fill caps are getting pretty brittle. Chunks like to fall into the valve cover when removing them. I found a replacement for them.
Dorman 82578 $5 at O'reilly's

 

Got to love ebay
I am using 470 in 73 ford courier to run at Bville (hopefully)
You guys are a wealth of knowledge!!!

 

I should have a four barrel manifold for sale soon if someone is interested. Possibly a trade for a crank would be awesome though lol

 

I have a extra crank.....

 

OK, I am asking for an opinion. I am planning on building two of these, and I am wanting to do the build on the cheap. Not looking for huge horsepower, but more of weight savings and aesthetics.

Does anyone have experience with the cheap aluminum aluminum heads on Ebay? Item number 231692431117?

Honest input appreciated!

Craig

 

I believe those are what "dawford" on this thread was going to use. He has not been here since Dec, 2014.
I MAY BE WRONG, but I THINK those were the old ProComp heads. ProComp used to have assembly issues. You needed to disassemble and check the valves, valve sealing and spring tension. Some or all of those MAY need replacement or remachining. That add says they do the assembly. It could be better or it could be worse?? It is the cheapest aluminum head available. It will save you 30#. Because it is aluminum you should be able to run the stock 8* timing advance. The compression chamber is almost as large as the stock iron head so compression would be about the same. You will probably need the guides, rocker studs, and head studs to go with them. If you want a little more performance add Scorpion 1.8 ratio roller rocker arms. You will probably need custom push rods with them.

They are less than half the price of the Edelbrock's (which my engine builders dislike). I was offered a deal on a new assembled Ford Super Cobra Jet head for $900 but the stock manifolds do not fit it and the piston valve notches are not in the right place. I paid $1400 for a Trick Flow A460 but it isn't a good street head, and takes different manifolds and pistons also.

 

There has been quite a bit of posting about the vibrations of these motors. I am NOT an expert but may have a little input.
I built an early 60's Chevy PU using a Cummins 4BT a few years ago. Those are 3.9 L or 239 cubic inches. They are also big vibrators/shakers. I had to add extra bracing in the hood. Before the bracing the middle of the hood would vibrate at least an inch up and down at idle. It cracked the paint and a little filler I had on the hood. Any 4 cylinder this big will shake at low rpm. I turned up the idle a little just to settle the motor.
This truck had a 400 turbo behind the 4BT. Since it was a diesel I didn't want to rev it hard enough to get big highway speeds. I called Gear Vendor Overdrive to put one behind the 400 turbo. They told me their unit wouldn't live behind the 4 cylinder diesel. They said the power pulses were far enough apart that the motor would ratchet the overdrive gears to the point of failure. It didn't make sense to me because the automatic had planitary gears just like their overdrive. I didn't buy the unit.

 

Would you be insterested in a trade?

 

Sure

 

I bought a pair of these heads earlier this year, planning to put one on the 3.7 I have and maybe build another engine to use the second head. Took them to my engine machinist to be checked out. They needed a full valve job because the seats were too small to contact the valves properly. Then when the seats were opened up it created a ledge that needed to be blended into the valve bowl. The valves being further up in the seat raised the spring height by .100 or more, which then meant the springs needed a bunch of shims for proper install height. The spring seats are cut very large and a spring cup had to be added to keep the springs from walking all over the place. As others have stated rocker arm studs and guide plates will need to be purchased. When I mocked up the engine, measured for and bought pushrods, I didn't know the valve tip was going to be where it is now, so it will be interesting to see if the pushrods I have will still work. I just picked the heads up, it will likely be at least a couple weeks before I have the engine assembled and running.

Overall I would say don't expect to buy these heads, put them on and run them. They will need work, however after that you will still have a reasonably priced set of alum heads.

 

How much stroke will fit?

One of the common stroker combinations for the BBF is a 520 cu in. This uses a 4.30” stroke crank in the 460 block. The Mercruiser deck height is .050” shorter and the stroke is .100” shorter. Using the same 520 Ford parts, if we put a 4.20” stroke on our crank, everything should work. With a .030" overbore it would be 254 cid.

Will everything clear in our blocks with that much stroke using steel rods? Aluminum rods are bigger so need more room.

A 4.2” stroke using the BBC 2.2” rod journals is about the max we can get from our cranks if my math is correct.

2.5” (our rod journal size) – 2.2” (BBC rod journal size) = .30” (possible gain) x 2 (it is that much longer on top and bottom) = .60” (stroke gain at optimum) + 3.75” (stock stroke) = 4.35” max stroke. My crank is already .020” undersize and the grinder needs to clean up the outside of the journals, but the 4.2” stroke seems very doable. The larger 460 stroker motors require a new crank. Even at the 4.3” stroke the BBF guys would probably buy a new crank. We don’t have that luxury.

There may be a little more stroke available with this combination. I believe the 460 guys are decking the block a bit for their stroker. I am unsure how much they are cutting. I have 2 motors apart now. I have already had one decked and the other needs it.

When a crank grinder offset grinds a crank it gets hot enough to warp it. They will have to machine the mains at least .010” smaller to make it straight. If a crank is already .030” under it is not a candidate. If it is .020” under it might work but it will never be able to have another main bearing regrind. The best case is to use a std. crank and wind up with .010 under mains. That allows the crank to be repaired later if needed.

What stroker combinations has everyone else used?

 

When I was in college (Ferris State 1974) we offset ground a 283 SBC crank to 2 1/2" (original 3.0"). We had no measureable 'warp' at the mains. Slightly different story after we welded up the crankpins to their original diameter.

I have a 400 SBC crank that was offset ground from 3.75 to 3.83. that's 2.10" crank pins down to 2.00". Theoretically, you could get 3.85" but we left a 0.20" margin for safety. This one has the mains turned 0.010" under but the runout before grinding was under 0.002".

I'm curious as to the actual deck height on these blocks. I'm convinced that a zero deck height on the piston is optimal. The quench comes from the gasket thickness only.

 

I measured my uncut block (using a 12" dial indicator) at 10.263". I am unsure what the most accurate tool is to measure deck height. The block I had decked is 10.252".
When the BBF builders set up motors for strokers I believe they are setting their decks at 10.30". Since our deck height is supposedly .050" less, should we be looking for a 10.250" deck height?
Custom pistons are not uncommon now. Decking a block to achieve the perfect deck height shouldn't be necessary, just move the pin where it needs to be. One big problem is talking to the right person at the piston mfg. Performance engine shops have a dedicated knowedgeable person they talk to when they call. When the common guy like me calls, I get to talk to someone who knows less than I do.

Above I posted that offset grinding the crank creates enough heat to warp the crank. The stress relief when grinding is what warps it.

 

I am having a problem finding a local shop to offset grind my crank. Most won’t do it.

I spoke with one local shop that is very willing, but their record is much less than stellar. I am waiting for their price quote.

Another shop I spoke with said it could take a full days labor and could easily run to $500 - $600.

A major concern of mine is the rod pin oil hole location after the offset grinding. Randy Dupree said his stroked land speed motor failed because of poor oiling due to the oil hole location. The hole needs to be centered in the journal. Since the oil hole is on an angle, after a lot of material is removed the hole is off to the side. Is the way to fix this to weld the hole and redrill it?

I am having a much more difficult time than I expected with these motors. It seems as though I am trying to reinvent the wheel. I am accustomed to follow the leader type builds. There isn’t a large knowledge base for these. With a SBC, BBC, SBF, or BBF I would just put the money down and buy a stroker crank.

Doug Lee's crank (photo in post 1323) is a work of art. I wouldn't have any idea where to go to have something like that built, nor would I be willing to pay for it. I am complaining about a $600 machining bill.

 

The trick with the oil holes is to rotate the crank to intentionally 'mis-index' it in the crank grinder, if that makes sense. Not only are you grinding more off the crank pin on the bottom side, you grind more off the side opposite the oil holes at the same time. This will cause the cam to have to be retimed to the crank. If you're this far into it, that won't be an issue.
When we ground the 'destroker' SBC crank, it did take several hours and redressing the grinding wheel more than once. Since we were students, the instructor realized that we were learning and let us go. I believe we only used the finish wheel because it was already mounted. Would have gone faster if we had roughed it out with a coarse wheel first. But then you have to change the wheel and set it all up again.
I don't know how hard the surface is on the Mercruiser crank. But, I think you may be able to rough turn the rod journals in a lathe by offsetting the crank between two 4 jaw chucks. I recently got a lathe big enough to handle the job, but I only have one 4 jaw. Let me think about that for a while. I might be able to come up with some way to offset the tailstock and use a live center.
The only piece I have for a Mercruiser is a crankshaft. It might have to be sacrificed in the name of Hotrodding.

 

I spoke to another crank grinder this afternoon. They are willing to do the job. He said it is done is several steps there. It is rough ground to about .030" oversized. It is then straightened and hardened. Then it is finish ground. He stated my goal of 4.2" would be very close to possible. He isn't sure yet. His pricing was $600. If I had another done he would know what it takes and the price would reflect that, either up or down. He suggested not using my .020 undersized mains crank also. He said they often do not have to turn the mains after stroking. I wonder if the first grinder I talked with didn't do the straightening step?

GearheadsQCE, I understand it is possible to do the rough turning in a lathe with special equipment. I don't know if it is worth the time and effort to take the chance. The grinders have it down pat with the right equipment. The crank would still need to be sent out for completion so a big chunk of the pricing would still be there.
Why don't you just send me that old crank???

 

Unfortunately an added expense, BUT if an otherwise 'good' crank is undersized, it can be 'hard-chromed' back to std.(or whatever std. you want to use) & will have almost indestructible journals. A shop that does 'hard-chrome' will have all the capabilities of an ordinary crankshaft shop, & will be able to do the offset grinding as well. Check also under 'industrial hard chrome', or check with the local 'race-shops' as to who does their forged cranks.

 

Beck,
If you need it, you can have it. Let me measure it and make sure it is standard. I'm pretty busy for the next couple of days, but I will let you know.
Now, about that $600 postage.............................................

 

Tscheerer: Thanks to you and Beck for the input on the cheap Ebay head. No need to buy junk and have it reworked. Just buy good items up front and not worry later on.

Now for my new dilemma! I had purchased two mostly complete engines a while back. I figured I would sell off components to help me defray the purchase price of the two cores. Well, I sold off both distributors, thinking I would upgrade to a better unit. Well, after looking at the layout of the distributor and how it interferes with the intake, I am going to run a nice belt driven unit on the left side of the engine. This will allow me to build a nice tubular intake and have a neater appearance.

So, it hit me last night in my sleep that I need a way to drive the oil pump. Sure enough, I went to the top shelf and looked and I have no distributors in stock.

So, does anyone have a distributor that I can buy at a decent price? I will need to cut it down, capture the top of the shaft and just use it for an oil pump drive. Let me know, either here or give me a call.

Thanks;
Craig
330.547.6300

 

If you didn't want to go 'distributor', Have you thought about 'dry sump'? It's a fairly simple external pump(look at modern Sprintcar technology, but not as complicated) that could be incorporated into your dist. drive system. Just another option, & if you drove the pump off the dist. shaft, any pump failure would stop the engine (no spark) before damage occurred.

 

The information about the cheap heads needing work is true for all mass produced heads regardless of source. If you're setting a head up correctly for a specific cam then you almost always need to do a little machine work and parts adjustment to dial them in. ....and don't get me started on the valve jobs on most of the "ready to go" assemblies these days. To be really right they all need work before they go into service.

 

I had thought about the dry sump route, but had in my mind at least, decided against it. Your point about the distributor and the oil pump on the same drive makes a lot of sense. I will have to rethink my plans.

 

You could also stay with the wet sump and install an external oil pump. If you are swapping to an automotive harmonic balancer there are drives that bolt to the front of it. A custom pump mount would need to be made for our motors. With the pump, drive, hoses, etc. expect to have $1000 invested. Every engine builder has their favorite brand. The builder I spoke to likes Stock Car Products and another which has interchangeable parts that I don't recall the mfg. This builder likes the 1.45" pump for our motors. He said the 1.2" won't supply the needed oil because of the engine oiling design. Post #1193 on page 40 of this thread shows a dry sump oil pump driven from the camshaft. The remote pump I am talking about is just the front stage of this pump. ( I believe Doug is planning to belt drive a distributor from the camshaft also)

If you are considering a different distributor check this one out. It is for a Ford flathead. I believe a cam coupler could be made for it if you don't use our stock waterpump. Every other spark plug terminal would need to be removed. It may interfere with your cooling system.



There is also the possibility of a distrubutorless ignition. I have plans to research that in the future.
I hope I have my HEI conversion about complete on the stock distrubutor. I have not spun it yet to test.