The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Dennis,
I can open the file as a .jpg but not as a .dwg
I converted it several times with the link you provided and another.

I'll try the dxf but don't think I have a way to view that type file.

 

I was not satisfied in being able to send the DWG file out You can view it fairly easily, it looks just like the JPEG does but I could not send it out as an attachment. I wanted to. I will ask the sign shop tommorrow how they do it.

When the metal is cut , the metal must be 20.5 inches long or the size is off. I measured it with a oversized vernier caliper that I bought at Harbor Freight a few years ago. If the image is small, for example 6.833 inches, divide 20.5 by 6.833 to find the scale size increase [which would be 3 ] and apply it to bring an undersize size drawing to the right size.

Although we are feeling our way along on this, we've made good progress since yesterday.

 

I think the problem is that the HAMB format doesn't allow DWG files.
Can you email a dwg file to me:

quickchangeexchange@gmail.com

If I can open it in my CAD program, I feel confident in taking it to a cutter. I may have a way to get a couple cut for free (plasma) if the file is compatible. That way we could see if the plasma is close enough for our purpose.

 

I have been wanting to try to cut one, I have a CNC table and could either plasma or router one. I think plasma would work with a little clean up with a die grinder if your planing on tig welding. Might need a tighter fit up if wanting to solder it in.

 

Bruce
the vector files can be sent as email attachments. This is by far the easiest way.

alternatives to doing it the easy way:
1. Libre cad is free and simpler than Autocad. here is the link:
https://all3dp.com/2/best-autocad-alternatives/

2. Dropbox [the free basic versionof it] is a way to send vector files to your cutting shop.

3. Autocad lets you have one month trial in which the files can be
if you want to look at a vector file, I found that if I drag and drop it into a message for this group an image appears. I think you are then looking at the vector file.

The DXF image looks like the jpeg file until it is magnified 3000% and then in places it breaks up into a line of irregular circles (looks like the Aleutian islands). I'm going to ink the drawing to see if that solves the problem.

 

3 window
The soft low temp solder alloys will give under clamping pressure but they are very easy to use. and with technique the aluminum solders/aluminum brazes do gap fill and a plasma cut may be just fine because of their gap filling ability. A tapered cut with good fitup at the bottom is best but less than best may suffice. Perhaps aluminum shavings or glass insulation fibers could be pushed into the bottom of the joint as caulking to prevent solder leakage. It may prevent solder running out of the joint elsewhere if you do not control the heat well and overheat the aluminum. I do not think that engine heat will be a problem as my engine #2 overheated severely but high temp resistant epoxy holding support blocks in place around the cylinders were not affected.

Aluminum is protected by its rapid forming tightly adhering aluminum oxide coat. It has to be removed for joining aluminum unless you use glue, bolts or rivits. Metal prep of aluminum requires thorough cleaning including sanding immediately before soldering or brazing. Some of the solders require flux to remove aluminum oxide, others require that the metals be scrubbed together.

Some aluminum alloys are easier than others to work with and a few don't solder /braze well I will post a table of alloy suitability.

A router bit (if it does not load up with aluminum) or plasma cutter may give sufficently good results. As you have the equipment, try it out on this to see how the results are. Do you require more than a jpeg file?
the attachments are from a russian article and some of it is not readable for us.

 

I have finally found that I can send you the vector files for cutting. Send an email to me requesting the DWG and DXF files
I am bmwden@gmail.com

 

I sent my files to a cutting shop he said the drawing was not good enough as lines were "erratic and broken". I will post the files again when I have that problem fixed.

meanwhile, here is a free viewer for dwg files:
https://autodesk-dwg-trueview.en.softonic.com/
it works for windows not linux [I use linux]

here is a free online viewer and editor for dwg files:
https://products.groupdocs.app/editor/dwg

 

I also sent files to a laser cutter and a water jet guy. No response from either, yet.

I only have my assembled engine here right now. But, if we can't get a professional cutter to do it by the time I get my short block, I'd be tempted to cut one out of mdf with a jig saw and then use that as a template for a router onto aluminum.

 

Hand work will be less frustrating than learning totally new skills. (This cad/cam stuff is all new to me) Laminate trimmers will follow your pattern. The challenge is to hold the router so firmly that the cutter can not chatter and also to feed it slooooly.

 

Correct!
That is the idea if using an MDF pattern. That can be fitted to the block fairly easily. Then clamp it to the aluminum. That plate can be trimmed close with a saw and the router is just used to make the final shape and smooth the edges.
@Three Widow's Garage, if you can do that on your cad driven router or plasma table, it would be worth a try.
I have just reread the entire thread and would like to see someone fill the upper portion of the deck with Devcon as shown in Post 1998. My nominee for this is @beck since he wants to stabilize the cylinders and the machine work is already done on his block. (at least one of them) I like the idea of using baking soda to establish the depth of the Devcon. I see on line, that 8 lbs. is $7.64 and 50 lbs. is $23.20. How much would it take?

As I mentioned earlier, I have located another engine. (actually 2) One is together but can be bought as a short block with whatever additional pieces I might want. The second is a stuck short block with no cam. The cam was sold and then it was discovered that the fuel pump lobe was worn almost completely away. The seller is looking to see if he might still have it around. Depending on the pricing, I may buy both. At least one would make a good dummy block for experimenting.

 

My cooling system takes much less than a couple gallons of coolant. That fills the engine and the radiator. I do not know how rigid devcon is but for block filling rigidity would not matter. I filled in part of a Mercruiser 120 block with jb weld, it machined satisfactorily but is too expensive for the amount we need.
One advantage of Devcon is that it does not involve heat so the block would not need to have heat sensitive parts removed. A disadvantage is that the top of the block is the part of it which needs the most cooling.

To fit a chevrolet bellhousing and manual transmission to the block, it must be cut 5/8" shorter. machine shops have to have a bare block for that. When the block is bare is the time to braze or solder in aluminum. After that it is decked. [any shop can do that but larger equipment is needed to mill the block shorter].

You mentioned wanting to use an automatic transmission . They have been used in racing with a dummy torque converter which is empty and an external valve to control transmission oil pressure and thus clutch action. I have no idea as to how long it would last. You would be saved dealing with a clutch linkage.

 

Dennis,
I'm not the one considering an automatic. I am looking at the possibilities associated with swapping Ford T5 parts into a Chevrolet T5 case. This to avoid milling the back of the block, not so much to save the trouble and expense of the machine work. But, rather to save the depth of the bell housing bolt holes.

An additional benefit may be to enable the retention of the original Mercruiser starter. I have this starter on my runnable engine. Eventually, I will replace it with the lightweight starter without the nose cone. In the meantime, it looks like the large bell housing would fit if a section of the nose piece was milled away. This creates a window and looks like it would provide the clearance.

These engines are great for tinkerers!

 

The large belhousing does fit. I simply sawed a hole for the big nose of the starter and rounded the contour edges to remove any stress risers. There is more than one Mercruiser starter nose size. The smaller ones are easier to fit into a window but any can be made to work. I cut the hole enlarging its size until it fitted.
I posted photos of some of the other starters and of the hole some time ago. A window would be stronger and worth the effort as the chevy bellhousing is thin. I used the original starter as a new one in its box came with one engine , it is heavy but even the lighter geared starter looks large . I put a ford five speed transmission into my 65 Mustang and found that in a 2800 lb car 5 speeds made little improvement as its ford v8 had ample torque ( the same value as the Mercruiser engine) for the original 3 speed. The mild camshaft grind I chose helps as the engine cruises at 2200 rpm in my street rod, so I went with a torque grind.
Don't be concerned with the bolt holes except that I'd use all of them if possible. Randy ran these engines 6800 rpm and everything held. They are nice engines. Great experimenting and teaching tools. He finally went to Toyota engines.

 

Begin with it in aluminum. You need a laser print (or xerox copy) of the pattern file I sent. Lay it image down on metal and wet it with acetone [not letting it move] the solvent melts the toner balls transfering the image onto aluminum. peel off the paper and you are ready to cut metal. I'd try it on thin metal because it is easier to cut and modify. After creating an aluminum template that fits, use it as a to mark your exact pattern on 1/4" plate. [spray the plate with layout fluid before marking it.]

 

I have my new files back from the blueprint shop.
The laser cutting shop has not yet contacted me confirming if they are ok.
I should hear from him on Monday the 23rd.

 

I think the new epoxy systems available would be a better attachment method.



3M was the original authorized Ford repair epoxy. It appears the new Caddy’s are getting a lot of bonding during construction. I expect there are other companies trying to cut into the repair market that may have a better price point.

A concern for the epoxy as well as the soldering/welding would be to get everything perfectly flat at the attachment points. There can be no pin holes, or irregularities in this joint.

I don’t know the machinability of the epoxy. It may be sticky/gummy when cut with anything. It may get porous when it is cut.

I think you guys are on a good approach to the head gasket issue. I see cleanliness as a major issue in the attachment process. I think a plasma cut part is dirtier than a water jet part. I think a part cut with a carbide bit would be cleanest. I don’t know what is left behind with a laser cut part.

The part I am having the most difficulty grasping is how the inserted part is going to be held in close enough tolerance to provide sealing of the gasket on it.

Is the goal to have the insert have holes similar to the Ford head and block so the gasket sealant can provide the water seal as designed on the BBF?

 

I wonder if we are trying to make these motors much more high tech than they are. They are from an era where everything needed a dab of RTV to seal up a corner here or there. I am thinking a bead of Halomar on top and bottom of the head gasket around the edge of the block may just seal everything up pretty well.

 

I've had JB weld machine well, that depends on the epoxy type. I asked the shop not to wash it in their washer as I did not want to knock the jb weld out If there are bubbles mixed in, they will still be there. It takes mixing technique not to make bubbles. the insert is usually surfaced to match the block. The goal is to be able to use commonly available gaskets. water flow is regulated by water hole size in the gasket. Ford and mercruiser gaskets have water holes in the same places but hole size should be different for proper water flow control as the water exits the head in different places on the two heads. I was happy with my ford head with foward and aft water drains through the intake manifold . photo posted here years ago.

With block fill at the top, the aluminum filler plate would not be needed if the gasket is clamped against it. If the devcon filler was slightly below the block surface, a ring of rtv sealant around each water passage in the gasket. may provide enough of a barrier to keep coolant where it belongs.

 

There is a little shop local to me that has a laser cutter. I know they are set up for stainless steel. I don't know if aluminum would take a different setup.

 

My engine is getting a bit dusty from lack of working on it.

Since my motor is planned to run short cycles I have not put a thermostat in the system. If you look at the front and rear of the intake manifold you will see ½” tubes exiting the intake. These tubes are connected to the head at the water outlet locations. The metal tubes connect to rubber hose. The hoses T together and continue to the top of the radiator on the right. My plan to control water temp was to use a pulse width modulation controller on the water pump to control pump speed. A simple on/off temp controlled relay would probably be good enough for me. Some of the inlet hoses are seen in the photo. The pump is located under the radiator.

In this photo the intake is just sitting on the motor. There are to be 5 bolts, one at each of the square flanges between the intake runners. Then it gets the stock bolt that go above the lifter valley cover. With my head the intake height is custom, so no gaskets exist for it. This will be an oil leakage problem, not water at this point. My plan is just load it with Halomar or Yamabond 4.

As seen my fuel rail is not completed either. I had an issue with a local tuner not liking my injectors. Upon returning them the USPS lost them, however they have “proof” of delivery. Long story short, I bought them, returned them, and got nothing back for them. I need to step up and buy the big buck ones now so I can get the rail done. I have not finished the fuel delivery/filtration system either. My pump is in the tank, but no lines yet.

 

I took a photo when I was putting my head on. It doesn't appear that I applied anything to the head gasket. It looks dry to me.

 

A friend runs a drag car. He always drains the block after every outing. That may be my best operating method. I will just watch the water for oil.
Of course another friend just built an Aries Midget 4 cylinder for use like mine. He couldn't keep the water out of the oil. He complained there was sealant smeared all over the inside of that motor due to lack of gaskets.
Time will tell.

 

dennis g, I was viewing your files. Do we not need the cooling water holes located on these to make good filler parts? Or were your plans to drill those holes into the insert after installation?

 

I am looking for an easy installation of the top filler.

1st things first, we need suitable aluminum cut and trimmed to fit. I am not seeing this as something too hard to make. What alloy would be the best for the insert?

You know I like the idea of the aluminum epoxy.

Clean the surface around the block and cylinders, and the filler panel well then degrease with the appropriate solvent.

Load the parts with epoxy and insert the filler metal.

With some added manpower or a lift turn the block upside down and place it on a pane of glass. The glass is super flat and should allow the filler panel to fit perfectly flush with the deck of the block. The glass is cheap.

Let the epoxy cure, then turn the block back upright and gently remove the glass. If the glass breaks is was low cost anyway.

The top of the block could be decked with the insert set in flush, OR if you wanted the insert to be a tiny bit above the surface, shim material could have been placed on the corners and edge of the block deck. That would make the insert stand a little tall to get a thicker cut on it.

I know you guys have been talking about ¼” thick material. I am thinking I like 5/16” thick material a little better. It would give the epoxy a little more to bond to and make the top more rigid. It does come at a minor increase in cost for the material and added cutting time.

 

We have to have them but since laser cutting can't cut the small ones we must drill the holes using a head gasket as a guide. The gasket acts as a restriction controlling the flow so the holes can be made oversize to assure that coolant can get to the hole in the gasket. As there are two coolant outlet designs the holes should either be drilled to match what your head's needs or be drilled oversize so that either head will work.

If one wanted to fill the top of the block with undrilled Devcon, it should be possible to run external rubber coolant tubes to the head from the block around outside the engine past the devcon and gasket . There are more places to fail, but it gets around the leaking problem and any ford 460 gasket could be used.

 

I anyone needs stock iron heads for these motors, I have some I would like to get off the shelf. I think there are 3 there. There free, but shipping is on your dime, or pick up in S. IL near St. Louis. They are complete with valves and springs, but have not been disassembled for inspection or reman. There just too heavy for my usage. I would be willing to put them on a pallet for truck shipping. Take 1, 2, or all 3.

 

I have been thinking about this also. As I mentioned to Dennis in a private conversation, I have some 3/8" 6061. I haven't been able to get anyone to give me a price or parameters on cutting one or more of these plates. My thought was that I would go with whatever material the laser or waterjet guy could cut. If Dennis can nail down a price, it makes more sense to me to have them all cut at the same place.

As far as attaching the plates to the blocks, I was pretty impressed with Boss 9 Brian's tig welded piece. He didn't go into detail of the welding process they used. But, I'm amazed that they didn't have to line hone the block afterward. I could be easily convinced to use an epoxy adhesive.

Just in case anyone wants to try to preheat a block in the wife's oven, it won't fit in a conventional 30" range oven, but looks like it could work in a 36" one.

 

Beck I'd use a gasket between the aluminum head you are using and the intake manifold, When I did my first engine, I did not know that the Mercruiser heads are milled narrower to match the block so I had to use a thick cork gasket and Hitack. Assuming the two dowell "pins" align, it would be easy to get the right width bolting a mercruiser iron head to the aluminum head and milling to match.

Bruce Better not cook your block before it is time to cook a turkey or your goose will be cooked. It will probably smellup the kitchen (my wife would have a fit). See if you can find a junk wall oven to use in your shop or cover the end of the block sticking out of the oven with a fireproof blanket (which might cost more than a junk oven) bearing inserts and seals will not withstand much heat. That the boss9brian's block did not warp surprises me also. That is why I think it was soldered or brazed but they could have tig welded it with enough preheating. My first block had to be align honed to get the crankshaft to spin.

 

Dennis,
I've been down that route before. When I did my very first Quickchange, I used the wife's brand new oven to heat the center case. It was used and the pores of the aluminum were full of gear lube. She wasn't home at the time but the smell lingered for a couple of weeks. I bought her a new oven a few years later and regulated the old one to my shop. I used it for close to 40 years before it finally gave up the ghost. I am reminded of that incident every time I smell hot axle grease.

I did get a quote back from the water jet guy. He needs a better file but I think we have that now. Pricing is:
$195 for 1
$60 ea. for 2
$55 ea. for 4
$50 ea. for 6
Included is a 'thin steel' test piece for trial fit and approval. I don't see enough discount for quantity.

Back to the laser guy.