I do body work. Kinda hard to avoid hitting cars with hammers The tag line came from a question asked at school. “Explain your occupation in a one sentence oversimplified explanation” it fits
Don't tell everyone - There are a few chronic complainers, know-it-alls and down right chiselers that I will not recommend a shop to! Russ
Technology marches on, leaving obsolete skill sets in its wake. A hundred years ago, you wouldn't have had too much trouble finding a blacksmith shop. Fifty years ago, a TV repairman (who would come to your home!). Auto repair (along with the skilled construction trades) is among the few places where practical knowledge is still valuable but they're doing their best to reduce that even there. The mantra is cheaper/faster, with constant pressure from employers to 'dumb down' these jobs to lower costs. These certificates are to reassure the consumer that there's competency for what they need done but sad to say much of the general public perceives anyone with dirty hands as less educated.
The county I live in is dead as far as old school work. A few years back I needed axle bearings pressed on a Ford 8” axle. Nobody around to do it. All the older guys with shops have died off and not many younger guys can work on anything pre 2000. The guy who used to build my starters and alternators in the next county closed up shop. He told me before he closed that I could buy an import part with no core charge cheaper than he could rebuild mine. I didn’t much believe it, but it turned out to be true. I’ve got a guy who aligns my drivers, but doubt he could do anything with the Lincoln other than set the toe, and I can do that myself. It’s a constantly changing world, as things are replaced with new designs, the old stuff falls away as does the knowledge of it. We just have to pass on what we know to those that want to learn it and carry on.
Development engineers and technicians @ FoMoCo were issued this nifty bank of vacuum gauges in their tool kits. They could be used to simultaneously measure manifold vac, ported vac, EGR vac, and a multitude of other signals as needed (plus a couple of insulated electrical pickup terminals). I still have need to use mine occasionally on friends rides. x2. If you think education is costly you outta try ignorance.
Interesting very interesting. So its all been said, but I'll just pile on with, I was shown ( late 1960s ) alignment procedures by a guy who was seven years past retirement age The world he learned the trade from was more than a century ago. The last time my DD needed straightening out, I chose to try 'the Boys' M M & J Before going, did the pressures in my driveway, cold, using two gauges just to verify. Next day in the driveway, cold, again 2 gauges. ( which BTW agree ), pressure ranged from 25 to 35 PSI. Hmmm
Yeah, that IS funny. Laser equipped and computerized bubble levels. Gravity is always straight down no matter how much you try to complicate it and make it look "scientific". Gravity and a bubble is still the same accuracy no matter how much you ad a laser show and computing power to find which way is up..... yeah, I keep acing those funny I-Car tests. They just want to cover themselves and make their "techs" insurable on paper. That's the main purpose. Technician A says certification is for insurance purposes. Technician B says that knowing when to press button A or B or C or D is an important skill. Who is right ? (A) Technician A only (B) Technician B only (C) Both A and B (D) Neither A nor B a computerized bubble level impresses the customer...
Nope. I can measure an entire car chassis in minutes with the new stuff. Before you can mount a set of center line gauges that can’t show length. Then give ya a print out for before and after. and yep it impresses be customer. but the tools used reflect the accuracy of the manufacturer. Old chassis are simple and have a larger margin of error. Old chassis are fun. A tape measure and a BFH can do a lot. And the customer is usually just as impressed.
@anthony myrick Your signature completes mine. My first comment on technology is that people relly too much on it to be able to fix anything where technology is falling short. I absolutelly believe that 3d printing will make the one off parts way easier, cheaper and faster than at any time in history, be it a door handle for a super rare car or a boiler for a steam car. My example for the frame work is because the guys with the fancy laser measuring system which they could use to fix that 20's frame don't know what to do if the computer don't tell them. Right now I'm fixing a 1954 Alfa Romeo race car that was badly crashed 10 years ago, why? Because it's a one off and the only known measurements are wheel base and track; Nobody wanted to tackle that job. The owner even scanned the whole car and had a buck fabricated out of CNC water cut MDF for the whole front of it. But he couldn't find anybody to rebuild the front of the frame, no matter their equipment. I took the job, now the car is on wheels and passed alignment with flying colors. Now I'm fabricating the whole front sheetmetal. Technology can make your life easier but it doesn't do everything some people just don't understand that, more often than not it's a technician problem. If I was given access to the best computer in the world, I would play Pong with it because I wouldn't know what to do with it. I worked in bodyshops where other bodymen couldn't understand why I have a dozen different body hammers and 2 dozens dollies when they need only 3 of each, I always told them that's because we have the same trade but not the same job.
@chrisp I hear ya. Restoration and collision repair are related. Not the same. What do you need to repair a 70 year old car? 70 year old technology and craftsmanship. The latter being the key. Not shocking. Hand building parts for a hand built car. Super cool. Using that as a comparison doesn’t exactly work. Not an indictment on anything and I’m glad there are still craftsmen that possess the skills to satisfy that need. I wouldn’t use center line gauges on a new car but I bet I could get really close with em if I had to. the laser system? I’m not a big fan though I’ve used it. There’s another system with a custom mode to create a blueprint from scratch. Just a fancy tram gauge with height measuring capabilities. Used it on cars with no schematics as well. I still use plumb bobs, squares tapes and trams. I like using old. It’s relaxing. Doesn’t mean the new is bad. At my old work place, those antiquated proven tools were used to create chassis blueprints in solid works. Kinda cool seeing both used together. I like using the old bubble alignment tools. Then check it with the new stuff. not surprising that it ends up in the “green”. Being at a school give you that luxury to experiment. I also would enjoy a game of pong. I guess on the topic of “are we losing craftsmanship” my opinion is a hesitant no at this point. I think need is the key. As long as there is a need for the skills, there will be someone that has it.
As technologies change, and are "obsoleted", a percentage (often a large percentage) of the service for that technology retires, goes out of business, or embraces the replacement technology. But do ALL of the service facilities EVER go away completely? Did you ever see a computer shoe a horse??? There were craftsmen, there are craftsmen, there will probably always be craftsmen. They may just not be as convenient from a location standpoint. So we use the new technology (the internet) to locate them. Jon
While I understand and appreciate the message of the OP, I respectfully have to disagree that all of the craftsmen are gone or are a dying breed, or that this modern technology is producing dumber mechanics. While the latter may be true when you're discussing the typical dealership tech that only knows how to R&R a part and follow steps in Alldata, I'd argue that we're in a golden age of rodding and customizing where the caliber of vehicles being produced has never been better. We can look on IG, or go to any basic show or cruise night and see incredible cars with extremely high quality restorations and customization. A significant driver of that has been technology in various forms. Part is the internet generally to facilitate the exchange of information, the ability to locate parts and cars, and the ability to connect with manufacturers of parts, as well as speciality shops, that provide what we're looking for. But the other aspect of that technology is modern tooling. TIG welders, MIG welders, 3D printing, CNC capabilities, CAD programs like SolidWorks, not to mention less expensive variants of big shop tools like English wheels, bear rollers, brakes, planishing hammers, mills, lathes, etc., have put big shop capabilities in the hands of small shops. Ultimately, all of us nowadays are using nontraditional means to achieve traditional ends, and the best are capable of not just blindly utilizing the technology, but understanding what job they are trying to accomplish regardless of what equipment that is being utilized for the task.
Just last week I had a problem on my 2000 something truck, my buddy who's a regular mecanic not even 30 with his computer started to tell me I needed to replace this, this and that (no money involved so he wasn't going to scam me) almost $400 in parts. Then I went to pick up parts at another mecanic friend, old dude in his 70's, racing and restoration background, never used a computer diagnostic system. He asked me to look at the truck, I just turned the key once and he told me : Oh the problem is this. We looked and in 5mn found a broken part that was causing 3 error codes on the computer but the computer couldn't "know" this part was broken. I was floored that just by cranking the engine once he knew it was none of the parts that the computer was saying as faulty that where causing the problem. A $26 fix... There will always be craftsmen, I believe like 57 that they're gonna be even better and more creative because technology allows stuff that were hard or impossible previously be it economically or technically. Personnaly I can't wait until laser cleaners and welders become affordable. I would love to learn 3D printing but have no time to spare for that, but I do have plenty of ideas for custom and restoration parts that are prohibitive and time consuming to do by hand.
I agree with Anthony about technology and craftsmanship. I believe there will always be craftsmanship, however, most people today are unwilling to pay for it. Almost everyone today is looking for the cheapest possible price. This is very sad to me because my Dad was a true Craftsman, he was back in the early 1980’s one of the finest trim Carpenters in Cedar Rapids Iowa and he taught and raised me to be a Craftsman as well. My toolbox at work has a sign in the top: Good, Fast, and Cheap- you can have two, but not three.
I straighten frames daily, week in week out, I've straightened frames from a original model T to the newest thing on the road and everything in-between. Racing go-karts/ side by side 4 wheelers to kenworth semi's and their flat bed trailers too and did it all with the same equipment along with frames gauges and a measuring tape. I have never had any body shop return one of my jobs because a panel didn't fit right or a body gap was off, infact 80% of the time I get a call telling me the job fell together and thank me for the quality of work and them saying that's why they always use us. In our heyday our alignment guy was booked 3 to 4 weeks in advance and we ran 2 frame guys/machines non stop and booked out 6 to 8 weeks, our lot looked like an insurance salvage pool from jobs waiting in line. We've done some amazing things and sadly I only have a few pics of my jobs but non are hamb friendly. I did the fancy laser frame stuff when I did all of the gm/chrysler certifications and training. Just boils down to experience, sure I may work faster with newer equipment but it sure ain't going to make me any better. .
It's not always that people are unwilling to pay, sometimes it's they just can't afford, I get contacted all the times by people with their Peugeot 203 or Citroën 2cv for a full restoration, when I tell them how much just in labor it's gonna be, they scoff and tell me they don't have such budget that their car ain't no Ferrari, then I tell them how many hours it's gonna take and point out that it's not about the brand of the car but the time spent, if he comes in with a 2cv and I spend 100h, the bill will be the same if it was a Ferrari. And I charge "only" 50€/h which is about half of what they are paying their grocery getter fixed by people who can't do what I do and don't have 100 g's in tools. After that they usually understand that they just can't afford a full resto, that they probably need to lower their hopes and expectations.
Agree 100%. A cabinet maker told me the same thing once, said use solid Oak, I said that would be expensive, he said wood was least expensive part, the labor is the same.
Hello, When my brother got his 58 Impala, it was a pretty fabulous car from the factory. Over the years of racing it at Lion’s Dragstrip and cruising all over coastal So Cal and into the mountains, it had its share of road hazards in its way. But, with the recommendation of our mechanical genius in Los Angeles, he knew of a young guy in West Los Angeles near UCLA that was pretty good mechanic and skilled alignment guy. It was a nice drive to that location, but afterwards, it drove straight, no pulling and the ride was excellent. It was well worth the longer distance from our Long Beach house to west Los Angeles for such a great job. Other cars were taken locally to a Long Beach alignment shop, but for the newest car in our family, we took it to get the best job around. It worked well for many miles. Although avoiding pot holes or uneven rocky roads/streets, as well as dips at speed was helpful in keeping the alignment in place for a smooth ride and handling. All of our hot rods drove ok, but we always thought it was just because of how old the parts were and continued. Once the “real” work was done on the front suspension and set up, our cars drove like fast sporty cars on a road circuit. So, we knew the talent in this business was “a keeper.” After high school, I had to drive over 400 miles up the 101 Freeway to San Jose, CA for my next adventure. It was a spur of the moment thing as it started some independence for me. As badly as the first semester of college was for being away from our coastal cruising grounds and friends, as well as home cooked meals, it was a step in the right direction. I needed to grow up fast. A new surrounding for the next couple of years worked out well as I got more experience in taking care of my own business and life. My grades improved, but I still had to drive 400+ miles one way to get home and afterwards, go back to school, (Another 400+ Miles) I changed the scenery by taking inland routes and they had their detracting problems. But, I did enjoy driving the El Camino. Fall/Winter holidays, Semester breaks, Easter Vacation (Spring Break), Summers and anything that required me to come back to coastal Long Beach as an excuse was a lot of driving annually. The 65 El Camino did well as a new car, but over the time of those North/South roads and highways taking a toll on the traveling, it needed help. So, it was not just a wheel and balance place anywhere, but specifically that one in West Los Angeles. Jnaki So, after we got married and were now in our own world, we still needed professional help when we got a project 1940 Ford Sedan Delivery with a 327 SBC motor for power. It drove home after we bought it, but the handling and braking was not good for any amount of safe driving. I tried to do some repairs and replacement of worn parts, but it needed some professional old school work to get it ready for constant driving as a daily driver and long distance road warrior. As luck would have it, the young wheel and alignment guy moved into his own shop in Orange County and it was a lot closer to our own OC home. So, it was pleasurable to re-acquaint ourselves to his new shop and work ethic again. His business flourished with the quality his shop put out everyday. In a newly constructed industrial complex near other automobile shops was challenging, but quality work ethic and skills overcame competition and word spread fast about the “NEW guy in town.” He took our ill handling 327 powered 1940 Ford Sedan Delivery and did wonders to repair and replace parts to make it the best handling/braking car we ever had. It was a pleasure to drive anywhere. It was so good that my wife now used it as the first choice in daily driving and errands to friend’s houses for a visit or two. I got stuck with a funky 62 Corvair as the alternate. So, yes, skill helps, experience helps, too. But when he retired, we thought all was lost if we needed any other alignment work on any vehicle. The new owners learned/worked as employees with the original owner and learned from the best. Now, it is still running under a new name and the reviews are still the outstanding work that was learned from the best.
I'm not knocking ASE cerification. It's up to the individual to learn and understand what they're taught. That is needed in order to fix the electronic crap they put on cars now. Not that they can actually do it, however. Awhile back a local mechanic called me to come to his shop to diagnose a failed generator on a '57 Chevy pickup. He couldn't figure it out. I took one look at the thing and could see that the brushes were worn to the nub and had been arcing while fixing to quit. He said he couldn't fix it 'cause he didn't know how. I could have turned the armature but I didn't have brushes. So, I told the customer to charge the battery and head for Evanston, 70 miles away, where there is an old time generator/starter man. A long story made short. Now, Mr mechanic is no idiot. He is a master mechanic that does diesel repair on big rigs and heavy equipment in addition to the computerized wonders of today. So, I ask you, What good does ASE training do for us? Not much, unfortunately.
Exactly! If the diagnostic tool doesn't give them the answer many have no ability to old school diagnose the problem. Same thing on the alignment side too, if the car isn't in the computer to give them a red or green light when they hit specs they have no idea where to go so they send the customer down the road. An alignment is the same basic theory regardless of the suspension, the difference only comes from how it's adjusted. The term hands on diagnostics is becoming a thing of the past without a scanner, now I understand new cars require scanners but it's not the end all either, I can still read voltage and or ohms across sensors, pick-ups etc. Many today wouldn't even know where to start. The old adage still holds true today, "a motor needs 3 things, gas, spark &fuel" and I still use that today on modern cars. If my kids newer car don't start, shoot a little ether down it, does it start? Then look at fuel delivery, ether and no start? Look at spark side. Then just reach out from there, as basic as the first gas engine built. .
Red seal automotive tech. Ac endorsement. Diesel endorsement . Air brake endorsement . Emission test / repair endorsement . Propane / natural gas endorsement . Fork lift licensed tech. Man lift / boom licensed tech. these are all “ required “ government licenses and endorsements that I need . Lol. Costs me a pretty penny every year to keep these current with the related governing bodies . Jaguar Guild technician . Mazda master tech. Toyota master tech . and I had 7-8 ASE certifications when I worked at jag as well but let those lapse . On paper I look like a fucking genius!!!! You know what this really shows people ? That I give a 1/2 a crap and am continually learning and trying to do better and figure things out . I say it to every apprentice I’ve had or new guy . 90% of being a tech or a mechanic is simply observing and being aware of how things work and go together . Someone put it together , you can take it apart . Going back together can be a challenge if you don’t pay attention . I tell my boss all the time , never hire a tech who claims he can “ fix everything “ you can be an expert in a couple fields of mechanics but not in everything . Im really good at internal combustion forklifts . Pretty good at electrical forklifts but not a pro . I’ve got guys that make working in electric forklift look easier then making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but don’t give them a no start in a gas unit , they will go hide in the corner and cry . My point is anything mechanical is a daily grind and learning every . Dang . Day . Once you stop learning , you’re no longer competent , as technology is constantly changing and you will get left behind . learn , learn learn everyday . Only thing I can add to this .
The Jalopy Journal
