Hot Rods The "Whatever" project

I know, right? At least there's some progress...

 

Okay, you lit the fire under my feet. Called the engine shop, and the 327 is going this Friday afternoon. And the heads are already there. So it's decision time. Do I spring for a forged crank? A stroker? Make it a bit larger? Or try to find a forged large journal 327 crank? They were popular in the 70s in the sportsman class using a 307 block 60 over. 320 limit, that combo comes to 317.

And speaking of the heads, they are 1.94 intakes still. Would fit the 283 with 30 over pistons. And I have been looking at those Trick Flow Fast As Cast double hump heads...
60 cc combustion chambers, would be able to use so called reverse dome dished pistons to get a streetable compression ratio.

And I know Jack wants me to use a hydraulic roller cam...

See what you started!

 

I love spending other peoples' money!
Now, I know people have been discussing the availability of quality hydraulic flat tappet lifters lately but there has been considerable issues with roller lifters also.
I would consider having this conversation with your engine guy, ask the hard questions before pulling the trigger.
A friend of mine said just before I built my 427 Rodeck small block...............
"Don't try and out trick yourself".
I didn't listen!

 

I feel your pain! I've been looking into lifters here and through other forums. It seems that there's a lot of concern with offshore crap. Also that the ones made here in the U.S. and sold by the more reputable vendors are okay. My notes are in a real notebook, remember those, with pages of paper... but I digress. Where was I? Oh yes, notes. I haven't got the notebook with me right now, and the old recall of the real manufacturers name escapes me.

And I have to wonder, why are roller lifters made with needle bearings. Except Iskys Extreme solid rollers. They have bronze bushings, which with direct oiling, are far superior to needle bearings for carrying the loads. Same with roller tip rockers. I've never seen a properly set up roller tip rockers roller tip fail. I have seen the trunion needle bearings fail. That type of bearing doesn't like back and forth rocking action, whereas a solid bushing with adequate oiling will survive that motion. I have a set of solid bushing roller rockers for my ot A-series engine, and they have been bulletproof.

So back on topic, yes a discussion with Jack is in the cards, to see what his current experience with all things cams and valve trains recommends. Which will also include valve springs. I see that a couple of companies offer conical springs, which seems like a no brainer to me.each successively larger turn of the spring has a different natural frequency, which should help eliminate spring surge. Die sets have used conical springs for years for essentially the same reason. Plus the retainers are smaller in diameter, lowering the mass that has to be controlled.

And I just geeked out again. Too many years an engineer!

 

As far as stroker cranks etc, I'd apply the K.I.S.S. principle. Use what you have. It's not like you're going to need a bunch of torque to move a lightweight like you're building. Re valve springs and rockers, I seem to recall an article in Hot Rod mag that attributed advancements in these two items as the biggest reasons that today's Drag Week cars can achieve such longevity with such high hp. Beehive springs were highly praised, and the bushed style rockers, (A) they were more sturdy, and (B) if they did fail they didn't litter the rest of the engine with rollers. Just my 2c worth, I'm sure there'll be plenty of people far more knowledgeable than me on all the above subjects.
Keep up the good work on Whatever.

 

Putting a stroker crank in an engine and using the same cylinder heads will result in an engine making the same horsepower as before - only at a lower RPM. You would need to increase the flow rate through the heads to take advantage of the longer stroke.
I've seen this proven on the dyno.

 

You guys are reading my mind! The stroker crank is nothing more than a 350 crank, 3.48 stroke, to get an affordable forged crank. The 327 crank I have is a cast crank, and needs turning. And the rods will need new bolts, so a rebuild is in order. Pistons are a wash. The block is a 1968 large journal, so it's the same used for 350s that year. It's really just the numbers stamped on it that say it's a 327...

Any brand name for bushed rockers? I'm not up on the latest available components, and surfing the internet when you are computer illiterate like me, well let's just say I have gone down some pretty deep rabbit holes and gotten distracted way too often.

Getting back to the short block, I'm looking at rotating assemblies supplied as kits. Costs are comparable to redoing my 327 bottom end. And that gets me a forged crank and better rods. Like I said before, pistons are a wash.

Heads, now there is an interesting subject. Being a wet flow engine, some surface roughness is a good thing. And I'm not building an 8 grand engine. More importantly for the street is good low to midrange torque without too much drop off around 6 grand. Flow quality is more important than flow quantity. So cam, heads, pistons and exhaust all have to play nice together. I'm guessing on the exhaust system right now, but not going big, just a reasonable size and length of tubing, and I'll work on the collectors and tailpipe sizes as needed.

Keep me honest guys, your input has been helpful and has made me look at the combination a time or 3 already.

 

Let's look at the package parameters.
What's the weight, operating range (85 tops or 100+), gearing, and tires?
A 327 should spin most HAMB tires at will in something under 2000 pounds.
Is this going to be a distance (good MPG, freeway gearing, 1800-2500 cruise) or a zip around town (all about the quick accel, rumpity idle) ride?
Torque is king on the street, but in a lightweight package on skinny tires it can be overkill.

 

Build the s#/t out of that 327 and put an egg under the foot feed!

 

What does one feed the HAMB brain trust with? 30-weight and tire tread? I'm continually impressed by the quantity (and quality, and variety!) of knowledge here.

 

I just found my old Deco weight checker thingie, you guys know the thing. It's still sold by Speedway as a way to get a quick check on corner weights. They are reasonably accurate if you make sure that the vehicle is level. We checked it out decades ago against Jim's electronic 4 corner scales. Taking your time and just lifting the tire being checked gives a reading that's within 3 to 4 percent of the real weight. A handy trick is to roll the vehicle onto paper and when you are lifting the tire, have a helper pull on the paper. When it just moves without tearing, take the reading. So what, you may ask?

Well, it's all I have at the moment to get an estimate of the overall weight of the Whatever project. So 1 corner at a time, and we'll see if my estimate of its overall weight is reasonable. I'm guessing around 1600-1700 pounds, but we'll see.

Because, like RSR hinted at above, I'm going to need that information for the engine shop. Gearing is easy, I can change it in 10 minutes with the quick change. As far as driving it goes, I'm not sure how comfortable its going to be. The seating position feels good, but who knows what the actual driving experience will be like. And if I've totally messed up the suspension, well let's just say that would make it a short trip only car... I don't think I have, but...

Tires are another subject. Right now it's sitting on some Cooper tires, sized to match up with those really expensive period correct tires I eventually want to use. But I figured that inexpensive rollers were good enough during the building stage. Somewhere way back we discussed tires, and your recommendations are up there. I looked at the suggestions and found tires I liked, just didn't want to get them until absolutely necessary.

One more thing I've been ruminating over is the transmission, as you have seen. There's another consideration I've been cogitating on lately as well. And here's where the rocks and arrows are going to be flying.

I've been looking into automatic transmission choices, thinking ahead a little bit. Here's why.

I've damaged my back requiring surgery back in 2016. But another bit of damage and an informed decision to not risk another surgery has caused a loss of feeling in my feet. Now I'm not complaining, as there's a silver lining. A couple of years ago I dropped the buggy spring and its big ugly mount on my left foot. It did some damage, but it didn't hurt! Try explaining that at the hospital...

My concern is that I have a loss of feeling in the left foot much more than the other side. And that's the clutch foot! So that's the reason for that consideration. And I have this crazy idea to use a Powerglide! Now there's a good reason. Or more. It is agewise appropriate, having first come out in the early 50s, well, a version of it. And it was used in Corvettes into the mid 60's.

Another advantage, it can be very short, with an aftermarket output shaft and housing. Jim used one in his hillclimb special behind a 400 small block Chevy, out of a sprint car, with a manual shift body, and a low stall speed torque converter. We weren't looking for drag race acceleration off the line, we wanted minimal slip. It also spent some time as a track event car, and the transmission never gave any problems.

They are very light, and more important than that, really small. I could use the space in the driver's compartment. And having the quick change, around town gear for fun. Potential trips, gear for sanity. If this happens I'll have 2 T5 transmissions and 1 T10 transmission looking for new homes...

 

Oh, and regarding speed: I'm too old to go really fast. But quick is another subject. 0 to 70ish needs to be as fast as the technology I've used will allow. A new SUV would probably beat me...

 

Okay, I've been keeping track in my head ( ) and many buckets weigh much closer to 2k than the 1600 fenderless rule. You've been building cars to scales longer than I've been behind something more powerful than a straight 6. So your guess is to be taken with more gusto.
On the trans front, completely understand going slushbox. The PG can be made very small, light and strong, all good factors. But, that means a take off gear and then a wind out gear. So a broader powerband is better suited. Typically, first to Drive is under 25 MPH unless you are manually shifting, cranked up the line pressures or WFO. That's what to plug into whatever slide rule or program you have to see what RPM range you are working with. Build the engine to be happy there.
Tim's belly button T is using a t5 IIRC, and it's compact under his body. But this is being built for YOU!

 

I feel the same way. I know some stuff, but there are guys here that make me feel like puddin'. That's why I try to help where I can, back off if someone smarter disagrees, and pick up new knowledge. There are a lot worse ways to spend your time.

 

Me too! This is the first hot rod I've attempted to build. A good number
of dirt cars, and a number of street machines. And a couple of hybrid research vehicles. 1 1/2 Minis (don't ask...). Helped on a lot of others vehicles, even almost caused the demise of a friend in his modified. Always remember to torque the motor mount bolts...

So I appreciate every comment and suggestion. I just wish I had the drive and talents of you guys. I'm learning something every day reading all of the threads on the site.

 

It's in the back of the daily driver! 327 to the engine shop today!

 

Is it running yet!

 

IT'S AT THE ENGINE SHOP! Neither sleet, rain, snow or even an earthquake this morning deteredme from getting the shortblock to Boyd's this afternoon. And I think that I'll be getting a 2nd 327 as well! Jack has one he was going to build for himself, but it's been under a bench, all machined, ready to assemble, just waiting, waiting, waiting...

Hey Jack's shop is always busy! It's been a while since he did this one, and the boss lady, his wife, wasn't in this afternoon, so he's going to get me a price for it later today or Monday. And as it's essentially the same as what I have, a large journal 327, I know I'll get it regardless. And have mine built as exactly the same as possible. He even has double hump heads to go on it! The only thing still to be determined is the cam specs.

Jack has been using hydraulic roller lifters made in Florida by a former Crane Cams guy, I didn't get the name. Jack said those lifters have been no problem. Just a little bit spendy. When I know the name I'll post it.

Now that's progress! And wallet emptying! Oh well, doesn't matter, only spend it on something else anyway...

 

That would be Gaterman Products in Daytona, right?

 

What are you expecting the car to weigh, not a lot I'm sure, even a "top of the page" camshaft will make your eyes roll back in your head Dave!

 

Don't knowyet, but now that I have a name, Google's my friend... thanks

 

I'm only guessing at this point, but by adding up the bits and bobs weights, I'm estimating around 1600-1700 pounds. I'm going to use my old Deco corner weight device to get a better estimate next time out in the garage. I can actually walk around the Whatever project and get to the wheels with that thing.

Jack said the same thing. He's already thinking broad, flat torque curve, and not going for big numbers in the top rpm range regarding horsepower. And assuming my crank passes magnaflux inspection, he's confident that the cast iron crank will hold up just fine.

And all this then begs the question of what am I going to do with two 327s and a peashooter 283? I'm thinking it's a tough decision ahead! I'm up for it however. Brother of WHATEVER maybe. I keep collecting parts, so who knows what the answer is...

 

Widen

or lengthen

 

Also gotta wonder how long that rearend lasted!

 

I've got some ideas!
Let's see... Crackerbox boat


Or a really quick pit bike...
Perhaps a V8 lawn mower....


I'm sure we can come up with some others

 

I wonder how long the Hoosier vintage race tires from the Mini would survive something like the lawn mower. And I wonder what the neighbor would have to say if I used his Wheelhorse garden tractor that we have in the shed.

 

You can always just build another car like I am doing!

 

Well, truth be told I've been collecting parts for Son of Whatever and there's more parts that are stacking up. I'm just saying that might be in the future. But 3 engines? I'm going to be a little bit more proactive in the garage...

 

Dave, if the old worn out 283 is in the way I will swing by and take it back. Might be going up to Lake George to pick up a top loader soon and it would be easy to help you eliminate some anxiety

 

Dave, Nothing wrong with having three of everything!