Hot Rods The "Whatever" project

I've seen those; however, the problem is that I have a 4 link rear suspension mounted inside the frame rails of my 1960 Falcon, and I believe the watts linkage will foul the 4 link bars. I know a watts link can be run with the center pin sticking straight up from the pumpkin (4x4 guys do it all the time) and I was intrigued by Dave's channel iron mount. I could run an OEM center from a PT Cruiser or Crown Vic for like $30 and a couple rod end links.

-rick

 

With the QC, you could use the brackets normally intended for a 3rd link at the top with a T shaped bolt sandwiched between them.

 

I made all of the parts for the Watts linkage setup a few years back, before I even started on the Whatever project. Here's some pictures of it.
The first picture is just the rocker mechanism for lack of the proper term. It's a 3 piece assembly of 2 parts of 1/2 inch 6061 T6 tooling plate band sawn and smoothed out with a belt grinder. The center piece is 1 inch thick cut out with a hole saw. The 3 parts are held together with 8 flathead socket cap screws. All of the holes were drilled to size after assembly so they are in line. The center bearings are bronze flanged bushings and the pivot bolt is a shoulder bolt. Some places call them stripper bolts. The pieces were sized scientifically, and if you believe that...

Seriously, in one of the pictures you can see some mock ups on the wall behind the bench. I made a few wood strip mock ups before I got the motion that I wanted. It's a fun exercise to go through, as it demonstrates the range of motion with essentially straight line motion of the center pivot point. And you can offset the pivot point if you also alter the other arm lengths. I messed around with these enough to come up with an approximation for the ratios, but didn't write it down. Hey it was on the wall! And I didn't know we were going to have a new house built! The one immediately above the quick change center section is one example.

I made the bracket that affixes it to the qc out of 3/16 steel plate, nothing special. I used CAD to design the fit around the ribs, Cardboard Aided Design... I cut the parts out with a bandsaw and hole saws, files and a belt grinder and drill press. Nothing fancy. It's 3 pieces welded together. Look closely and you can see the bracket changed. It was bulkier than necessary, so some got cut off.

So that's the story. I went away from it, following Colin Chapman's sage design philosophy. Simplificate and make lighter. Hence the short panhard bar system. Oh, and one more thing. The center pivot point is where the roll center is located. With the pivot affixed to the differential the distance betwee the roll center and the cg changes with movement, changing the leverage and affecting the roll moment.

However you can reverse the way it all attaches to the car, with the center pivot affixed to the frame and the outer ends of the locating links to the differential. Now the roll center moves up and down with chassis motion, however the moment doesn't change, as the distance between the cg and the center pivot is constant.

Hope this helps you figure out what you can do with your suspension.

 

Oh, and the bell crank doesn't need to be vertical. It can be angled or even horizontal for packaging purposes. Other suspension arrangements may be better suited for your application. Like what I did, changing to a panhard bar and accepting the drawbacks associated with that setup. And Henry's buggy spring system and torque tube system gets a bad rap. But it has some appeal from a couple of perspectives. It minimizes components needed to locate the rear suspension. And with some creativity it can be made to work pretty good. I'll let others expound on the geometry required.

And the Chevy truck arms, used by NASCAR until a couple years ago, can be made to work good as well. However one factor to remember is that the built in flexibility is actually a good thing, as this system as designed has binding built in. If not for the flexibility of the arms, stiffness in roll would be a big problem, and parts will fail eventually. I have considered reconfiguring the lower frame tubes and using a custom made version of the truck arms, including the original style of rubber bushings at the front pivot point. We'll see on that...

I'm sure others will offer further comments and experiences with suspension design after this. Maybe we should start a conversation again just about suspension design. I know I'd learn a lot more.

 

That's an awesome setup. Thanks for the pics and write up! It's too bad you didn't get to use it for Whatever, but maybe next project.

-rick

 

with the 4 link rear i'm thinking that i might look into mounting the pivot pin straight up from the pumpkin (maybe using your style mount rolled upwards 3 to 4 bolt holes). The Crown Vic unit points up at the rear seat at about a 45 degree angle, whereas the PT Cruiser unit is traditional. The horizontal version works well, too like you said. 4WD Mechanix Magazine: Full-Traction Suspension 'CRC' Link System for JK Wrangler (youtube.com)

-rick

 

i have a set of those that came with the rear. Aluminum, but would be perfect templates for steel.

-rick

 

I decided that simplicity won out over better geometry. The parts are on the shelf, and I'm constantly reworking things in my head. Like I said above, I'm still ruminating over the design of the rear suspension. Oh, and because I'm a glutton for punishment I'm thinking about the front suspension as well. After all I have a good V8-60 tube axle to use in something.

And before you ask, yes it's a sickness. But I'm much better now...

 

Pictures!
2-1/4 Rochester carburetors. Dirty but fully rebuildable. Next, buy a manifold and the conversion kit. And an ultrasonic cleaner!

 

So Harbor Freight has a listing for a 6 liter 40 KHz ultrasonic cleaner, reasonable prices. Nearest store out of stock. Figures...

Their store locater function is interesting. It lists the next closest store and the distance to it. What is interesting is that it's the distance between stores, unless you let it use your location. And now they have even more data on me.

Back on track: I have a question for everyone. What is the plug called that holds the little filter in the carburetor and is also what the fuel line connects to? I know, seems like a silly question, but I haven't been able to get a listing so I can buy 3 new ones. Or alternatively some sort of fitting that will connect to fuel lines with minimal extra fittings like available for Holley 4 barrels.

Please help out a computer illiterate...

 

Fuel inlet fitting.
Many vendors have them. How are the threads on the carb plate. They make a repair fitting if I remember correctly

 

Thanks Walt. I'll put ratrodder on the case! Hey, what's a nephew for, after all?

 

Nevermind! Found it on the first attempt! Knowing what to call something really helps

 

Books have been written on names. We get a few threads a year trying to find the root or reason for automotive and slang terms. I ran across a few interesting thing in my days as an automotive technical editor.

 

The Holley double pumper center hung float bowls - those fuel inlet fittings - those are the same thread as the side fuel inlet Rochester 2 Jet. So if you have a bunch laying around- there you go. 99% certain on that… it’s been awhile since I had to order any.

 

Yes You are right. I used RstRs name (no not HIS name, the part name...), and found out all sorts of good information. Like sometime in the 70s the threads were changed and made larger. And the threads for both the 2 barrels and the Quadrajets before that happened are the same as the Holley threads like you said. So I could cheap out and use old ones. I have 2 in a 650 dual feed Holley, and one in the 4 barrel that was on the old mangy 327. But of course I hate SAE flared threads and fittings!

Most of the companies that supply hose and fittings have fittings that are the correct thread on the carburetor side and are direct to JIC fittings, so reducing the need for adapters to leak. And I have a pile of new, leftover materials from ot vehicle projects.

And have I told you I'm half Scots i.e. thrifty, and the potential to use already on hand stuff is my first priority.

 

Not me, man. @vtwhead cracked the code for you.
I'll take credit and blame when I am the one, but not this time!

For those that want a bit more background, JIC
https://www.qchydraulics.com/what-are-jic-fittings.html#:~:text=The acronym JIC stands for Joint

SAE
https://www.grainger.com/category/p...be-fittings?attrs=Standards|SAE&filters=attrs

@Dave G in Gansevoort , what about brake lines? I plan on eventually redoing the lines on my toy. Don't you need adapters to go to JIC there? Don't want to go stainless and braided, just nicop and rubber. Cost, ease of fabbing, and simple look, not high zoot, show look. This isn't going to be a chromed out, flashy thing or a race car for the street style.

 

And here I was reading JIC as "Just In Case"... thanks for straightening me out @RodStRace!

 

Well, once again the Scots in me won out a while back when plumbing an ot car. British car with those funny bubble flairs. And I decided to plumb everything with JIC stuff. Now at the same time at work, a section of-4 stainless braid covered Teflon hose was in the dumpster at the lab. Now this was no ordinary -4 hose, no sirree! This was 6000 psi rated, with an id like -3 would have. It was about 45 feet long, with about 3 kinks in it along the length. This left 4 usable sections roughly 10 feet long each. BTW it was used in the lab to deliver calibration gases to emissions analysers, in particular NOx instruments. And the gases at the higher concentrations will kill you!

So the reason for overkill and replacement of the particular hose, safety. Now the normal -3 used for brake flex lines is rated about 3000 psi. We're talking burst pressures BTW. So this kickass hose makes for a lot better flex line, as long as its not bent tighter than about a 4 inch radius give or take a few tenths. Your brakes are very firm when you step on the pedal. And the connections to the hard lines are so much easier to make than SAE flairs. And the tools were available at the lab! Of course I don't have access to the hard line tools anymore, but Swagloc will work and it's stainless steel. I know those fittings are spendy, but I just happen to have a few collecting dust...

Long story short, I can plumb the thing with really good stuff that will outlast me without too much current expenditures, and never flair a section of tubing! I'll be taking pictures when I do that, and I'll try to remember sources and part numbers, although I don't think too many will want to reproduce what I am planning on using because to buy it all new would cost an arm, a leg, your 1st and 2nd born children, aleft nut, and the deed to your man cave. I'm just good at scrounging...

 

Is the teflon core compatible with your brake fluid?

-rick

 

Yes. It's the same as the tube inside of those stainless braid brake lines everyone uses these days, only thicker walls. And that's what makes it resist ballooning and made the brakes in the ot vehicle so solid.

The only problem I've ever had with that type of tubing was using it for an oil pressure gauge line. And forgetting a good solid ground between the engine and the battery. Yes, you can guess the results. The stainless braid became the ground. Not pretty when you smoke the line that way.

 

Some progress today. Got some rod ends from Rod End Supply. 5/8-18 thread, 3/8 bore. HSLA steel, well made imo.

And ordered a new 3 deuce manifold and the conversion kit for Rochester 2g carburetors from Speedway. That was at 3:30. Just got an update, it's already on its way to me. And I've started on the redesign of the front suspension. I just can't help myself sometimes...

 

Do we call you Tim Jr.?
Still following both of your builds. Both unique and interesting in their own way, both craftsmen who aren't happy until it's right.

 

So if I'm Tim jr, does that mean you are Tim 3rd? We're both looking to Tim for inspiration and guidance.

I do have a question for everyone. What brand of epoxy stuff is the proper product to use? And is there different types for the different aspects of bonding stuff?

And 1 more. Are there different curing rates that I need to be aware of?

And any other tips, tricks, suggestions, advice... you know, just spill your guts on all things epoxy resin and fiberglass stuff.

 

Tim mentioned what he used just recently in his build when he stuck the wood to the body for the door.
I have not ventured into this part of the build yet, so absolutely no first hand tips. There are a LOT of 'glass videos, and I hope to have the floor and bracing in before winter when I hope to body and paint the bucket.
From what I have seen, I'd want something that won't cause ghosting. If that is a solid connection bonding the entire brace or something that ends up more like a ribbon of adhesive which can flex during temp changes, I haven't confirmed. The second sounds like it wouldn't be as strong a support structure, so other opinions are welcome! I just don't want to block and paint only for lines to show where the wood is on the inside.

I haven't done any 'do it until it's right' stuff on mine, just repairs and dreaming. So I'd put myself in the Aspires To Tim status.

 

Dave
Look up methacrylate bonding adhesives, there are a "plethora" of them, designed for bonding dissimilar materials, such as figerglass to steel, fiberglass to aluminum, etc.
Many available with specific work/cure windows, even within individual brands.
Karl Wescott recommended it for bonding the new aluminum trunk riser in my roadster.

One brand I have considered is Plexus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ple...wcyLjIuMy4yoAeyNA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

 

Thanks for the link! I've got some reading to do...

I like that it doesn't require mixing and measuring stuff, that it looks like a caulking gun type of thing. I imagine that extra mixing tips are available so that you don't have to use up the whole batch before the material sets in the tip.

That certainly looks like a good way to bond the wood to the fiberglass before using resin and cloth on the exposed parts for reinforcing. Hey RodstRace, we got some homework to do...

 

Never stopped. The day you stop learning...

I'd also say talk to your painter and make sure they are comfortable with the other materials used, but we both know that's us also!

 

I've read about it, yet to put it to use.

 

I think the 3 of us have some learning ahead of us...

Rattle can paint for me. Maybe a little bright stuff, as recommended, electroless nickel plating. I'm harkening back to my dirt track days, Rustoleum, and it only has to look good at 20 feet going past at 90!