History Things that worked, until someone in modern times decided they don't. Photo tread

Bruce Dostal Falon note square tube in cage but gusseted. Bruce roll the car at Fonda he was looking down at the flagger



Modern cage design D.O.M. tube note wild offset and lack of gussets for weight savings.
Larrett Daniels street stock he was lucky and walked away

 

Leaded Fuel and Road draft tubes [worked great until all the environmentalists complained]

 

I have a checklist for my cars-
-Quarter vent windows
-bench seat
-column shift
-crank windows
I used to own a '60 Cadillac with power windows, so I can make exceptions at my own peril.

 

Do you know that GM invented the positive crankcase ventilation system in the 20s? Not as an emissions reduction device, but to make delivery vehicle's engines live longer. A vehicle needs to be moving for the road draft tube to work, so when the drivers got out of the vehicles and walked to a few houses before getting back in and driving to the next stop, and repeating this over and over again, the engines would get sludge buildup and fail at ridiculously low miles.

The PCV system stops that. Oh and it helps with ring seal, lowering the octane creep older engines experienced. The stuff getting up in the combustion chamber causes all sorts of nasty things to happen in there. One of which is a tendency towards preignition and detonation, hence the reason for octane creep.

There's more but it's supper time and I have to make it...

 

Look, I get your point. And I don't even disagree with you. I get what you're saying.

The fact of the matter is that almost universally, even when discussing the stuff here, new, modern, off-topic, engineering and automotive systems are vastly superior to the old stuff that is on-topic here. Disc brakes work better. So does electronic ignition. PCV valves. Everything works better, and for longer.

Additionally, motorsports are seemingly safer than ever. Growing up, I was really into NASCAR. I used to watch Neil Bonnett on TNN on Sunday mornings. Then he was killed in a crash. So was Adam Petty. Then Dale Earnhardt. Since then, modern cage design, fuel cell technology, fire suppression, better harnesses, and perhaps most importantly, the mandate to wear a neck restraint (ie HANS/NecksGen) , has made racing at all levels safer than every.

I'm not saying that it's appropriate for discussion on this board. Not all of us take issue with a little modern mixed with our old. And I don't agree with some on this board that think that the old is "better" (for the most part). If it was, it would still be utilized. The old is cooler, more fun, and has the allure we all love as people who appreciate the old.

 

Okay, I admit that I am prejudiced, 80 years old, crabby and just plain disgusted with modern stuff. Where I live, we have to bring someone in from another state to fix the stuff. Often it's not fixed when they leave. So, I vote for just about everything now being a throw away piece of over priced junk. We used to have some really good reliable products and there was usually a repair shop in the neighborhood if you needed one. When they fixed it, it stayed fixed for a long time. Now, the repair man on the corner is gone. Try to get your expensive leather shoes re-soled now. The technological master pieces often can't be fixed at all. Just throw it away and buy a new one. (Watch it, buddy! I have a credit card and I know how to use it!). Points and condensers, carburetors, manual transmissions and AM radios. Seats with real springs. The real stuff that could last a lifetime. Gone........
Thus sayeth the grumpy old fart.

 

As a sometimes grumpy younger fart (just ask my wife), I understand and at times (often?) agree with this sentiment. I'm half your age Glenn, and I also prefer the "real stuff that could last a lifetime." I think planned obsolescence has a lot to do with - if you design and build your product so well that it rarely requires repair or replacement, then you've got to keep selling them to stay in business. Or keep coming up with new products, etc.

 

All hail the grumpy old fart. I am a disciple of the same truth.
Quarter vents are the most functional thing I know.......

 

As usual thread has gone off the rails because people don't read, they interpret.

I am looking for photos build styles, hot rod speed parts etc.... that were once common place but because someone heard that their friend's brother's mother's 3rd cousin say they don't work or are dangerous people no longer use them.

 

My dad taught me to ride the brakes when going thru deep water and about 50 yds after I came out of it. I never had any issues in stopping at the next signal or stop sign. Granted I didn’t drive with my head up my a** either. I never had anything with discs until 1976.

 

Early racing head protection........
Sometimes the friend's brother's mother's 3rd cousin turned out to be right.

 

I have no photos but how about the use of Stick welders. Everything needs to be Tig welded nowadays to meet internet approval , and although just as good in the hands of a competent welder, stick welding is frowned upon .

 

I guess some people frown on getting weld splatter, fireballs burning through your shirt and setting your pants legs on fire. I have enough burn scars from welding overhead that the new ones don't even hurt anymore. As far as weld quality goes, I'd match my stick welds with anybody's tig welds on carbon steel or stainless.

 

I am also a big fan of vent windows!

 

Sidevalve.....yer killing me, here!

Roger

 

Those arrows are even older tech. Useless I say! Bring back the musket...

 

^^^ That is a direct case of where you can point to something and say it is unsafe what I am talking about are things because of misuse, speculation, flat-out bad information, or lack of understanding have been deemed unsafe.


Roll bar/cage design comes to mind.
Square tube and Black Pipe roll bars/cages get a bad rap as being unsafe when the truth of the matter was people were using used Black Pipe that had rust/eroded from the inside and were not gusseted or reinforced.

Vintage drag racing, the bodies are destroyed but the rollbars are intact, because they are gusseted and reinforced.


Bruce Dostal's Falon note square tube in cage but gusseted. Bruce rolled the car at Fonda he was looking down at the flagger again the body is unusable, but the cage held up. -



Modern cage design D.O.M. tube note wild offset and lack of gussets for weight savings.
Larrett Daniels street stock he was lucky and walked away-



Modern D.I.R.T Modified note bent collapsed halo
bars.


It's has nothing to do with the materials used but the construction of the cage!

 

My 1st car, a 1950 shoebox Ford, my 55 Ford, my 1958 Vette and lots of others had drum brakes. I drove like anidiot at times; rain, snow, whatever...never had a problem. Bench seats and vent windows were some of the best. A SMOOTH riding suspension was GR8 too. Only a full size truck rides half way decent today. This new stuff is way too tech heavy and ...................nuff said

 

Here one I have always found somewhat ironic, front engine dragsters being dangerous because of the driver/engine location....


...pull the body off a modern funny car and what do you have?
A front engine dragster only with the rear end behind the driver!

 

What do you propose drove many of the changes in racing/hot rodding? I would say that performance gains or safety improvements have driven the changes we have seen. We are now going much quicker, and far fewer guys are losing their lives. I don't think 'mis-information' has much to do with it, if that is what you are saying....

Top Fuel morphed into rear engine because the FED setup limited speed/elapsed times. Part of this was that rear engine provided performance advantages, but a big part was also safety concerns. The snippet below from an article dedicated to the subject follows the story of the change.
Here is a link to the whole thing: https://www.motortrend.com/features/beginning-end-front-engine-dragster/

"By 1967 speeds of more than 220 mph were seen from the rapid march past the magic 200 mph. Then after 1967 the speed and e.t. gains fell flat. Everyone hovered around the mid-220-mph mark at 6 seconds for years. Was this all there was? It seemed that way until that fateful day in 1970 at Lions Drag Strip when Don Garlits' clutch sliced through his car and the age of the rear-engine dragster had dawned. This paradigm shift not only radically affected dragster design but also speeds.

Garlits' revolutionary rear-engine dragster seemed to magically appear, but everyone in Top Fuel knew for years that dragster evolution had bigger problems than stagnant times, and this represented a more sensible design. Violent, deadly engine and clutch explosions were occurring on a regular basis. One seen on a weekly basis was Jim Nicoll's dragster ripping apart at the 1970 Nationals, used as part of the opening segment of the weekly ABC TV series Wide World of Sports.

But the timing was interesting, as chassis builder Woody Gilmore had just given up on a rear-engine design with the horrific obliteration of his experimental dragster piloted by Pat Foster. And we do mean "piloted," as the dragster flew into the air at Lions Drag Strip in December 1969, smashing into a light pole at 200-plus mph. Foster spent months recuperating. His suggestion to Garlits? Slow down the steering, which "Dyno Don" heeded.

Bill Schultz, owner of the Schultz and Glenn Top Fuel dragster, thought front-engine dragsters had plenty of developments left to reveal. He ordered a new car from California Chassis Engineering with the engine set forward 50 inches from conventional dragsters of the time. It set both ends of the record at the 1971 NHRA Nationals, but was runner-up to Steve Carbone in his front-engine dragster. Some—like Tom McEwen, Don Prudhomme, and Roland Leong—campaigned both flavors of Fuelers to hedge their bets. But with Garlits winning the 1971 NHRA Winternationals, 1971 March Meet, plus runner-up at both Lions and Orange County Raceway just before the Winters, there was no longer any need to ponder Top Fuel's future.

Rear-engine dragsters were lighter, the weight distribution kept front ends planted, locked rear spools could now be used to help dragsters achieve quicker launches, steering corrections were easier and more controllable (not to mention drivers were out of harm's way from an engine or blower explosion), and they could see without a big, blown Hemi engine to look around. Before the end of 1971, Garlits had discovered the rear wing, giving designers another development to incorporate into their dragster designs. Gilmore, Huszar, Long, and Fjastad immediately began getting orders for rear-engine machines. "It increased my business especially," Long says."

Oh, and you wanted this to be a "picture thread". Here are a couple of beauties.....




Here's another way to look at it. Many have lost their life in the pursuit of speed, and every loss is tragic and deeply regrettable. The one positive thing to come from it is the advancements we have seen with concern to safety. I don't think an attitude of 'they can't tell me what to do' is either helpful or respectful.

And, by the way, I am a mad FED fan. Love them with a passion. But I also know their limitations and dangers. That's part of their attraction. But to go back to the days of non-regulated, homemade chassis/rollcages, no thanks. Sometimes progress is a good thing......

 

I had a family friend killed in the 1990 ARCA, and there have been knee jerk reactions made in the name of safety over the last several years!

Neil Bonnet and his death were mentioned earlier in this thread, this was at the height of a tire war between Hoosier and Goodyear. Bonnet was on Hoosiers, and Hoosier had a few failures, so the automatic reaction was to blame the tires. Many in the field switched to Goodyear, and soon NASCAR announced Goodyear, would be the only tire suppler.

Later it was discovered it was a shock mount failure that had caused the crash.


The mandated use of H.A.N.S. devices which the seat belts commonly slide off!

Dirt Late model at Bristol at speed 100 plus, note right side shoulder belt slid off the H.A.N.S device and is flapping in the breeze!


From the 2023 Chili Bowl. Driver was shaken but O.K.


Trust me I know a little something about oval track racing, given my family history!

Great Uncle Don Wyle


Great Uncle Great Leslie Kellerhouse Chief Steward Fonda speedway NASCAR offical


My Father Willard Chassis builder-


Cousin-Edward "Doc" Docskalik driver



My Build-https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...chevrolet-6-powered-model-a-stock-car.976419/

 

You used the example of front engine dragsters in post #49, and my comments were in relation to that only.

 

You're right about the irony of Funny Cars' engine position being "Safe", While dragsters "had" to go to rear engine. I think what saved the funnies was the advancements in managing fires-the bottles, the suits, etc. It took a while though-ask Shirley. They tried rear engines in the Funnies, but only Big Jim Dunn could make it behave. The short wheelbase funny car with rear engine was just too prone to get out of shape.

 

Real safety advancements in racing/hot rodding come from research, observation, development, and unfortunately in may cases tragedy.

What has happened over the last several years is people from our world or from other forms of motorsports or the automotive hobby have come in with very little to no understanding of what we do or how thing work.

I go back to Dale Earnhardt and all the "safety" that came from it, it is was a well-known fact in stock car auto racing Earnhardt mounted his belt wrong!
He said mounting then the correct way was uncomfortable, he and Bill Simpson went round and round on this subject damn near having a major agreement!

However, Bill Simpson's name got dragged though the mud, every racing series and short tracks mandated the H.A.N.S and Full Containment Seat which often don't fit correctly in a short track car, while the single greatest safety development the S.A.F.E.R barrier goes largely unrecognized, and virtually unused on the short track level because it the cost on the S.A.F.E.R. barrier lays on the promotor/track owner while prices of the H.A.N.S and Full Containment Seat fall on competitors.

 

Interesting that engines moved forwards towards the end. Context again: stickier tyres, stickier strips meant that it was a different problem to solve, one which pointed to a CG further forward.

 

Yep, that would sure make it easier to locate all your brains. Beats scooping them off the track

 

I have repeatedly pointed out that "round tubing is always stronger" is a widely-held misconception. From another thread: "Likewise, I suspect that roll bars and cages are required to be made out of round tubing not because it's stronger — square tubing of the same linear weight is either equivalent or stronger in every plane, and a bit weaker only in torsion — but because there is basically one proper way to join round tubes, and that not only limits stress risers to only two very small zones, you can identify it as the proper way just by looking at it. All the wrong ways are immediately visible too. A safety inspector can tell the difference at a glance."

On the other hand, there are lots of ways to detail a square-tube cage, and you'd need to analyse each junction individually to tell if it's right or wrong.

Context, again. The role of the safety inspector in the scheme of things has changed.

 

1960
We had one thing that was a safety item, approved by all racing groups for competition. Behind and above the bellhousing, was a two piece scattershield. The bottom unit bolted on and the curved top portion fit over the bellhousing and bolted on to the bottom plate.

Note:
If you raced after 1964 and did not suffer a horrendous blowout, thank Joe Shubeck…

Hello,

We had the unfortunate experience of having a heavy duty clutch with no more than 25 runs with SBC carb motor power to a 671 292 c.i. blower spec motor until it let go. It was after getting to the final elimination race in August 1960. The same clutch company in Long Beach was where all of the local drag racers had gone to get their custom built heavy duty clutch for their race cars. It was a few blocks from our old high school.

It was installed behind a 283 SBC slightly modified motor with 6 Strombergs in our initial 1940 Willys Coupe build. It ran well on the street and for the two months of racing, performed well for a dual purpose modified, street legal coupe. We kept the same drive line for our next rebuild to a larger 292 SBC blower spec motor with a 671 supercharger and again, it performed quite well.

It was an impressive set of elimination rounds. Until the clutch let go just about at the timing lights and a resulting fire caused 3rd degree burns on my brother. The incident was view by a lot of people and we saw it from the starting line, some racers told us later that from their view on the return road, it was horrendous.

Jnaki

If you have a doubt, a solid Lakewood Industries 360 degree steel enclosure has saved plenty of lives after it was on the public market. We missed that development by several years. Our legal inspected two piece scattershield was what was sold at the time to most racers. But, we had a hard time finding all of the pieces (if any) of that scattershield on the track and/or where the Willys was stuck in the fence.

Note 2:
From a previous thread:

...If Joe Schubeck’s invention was around back in 1960, we would still be involved in drag racing for many more years to come. We may have still been in the hot rod industry of some kind. His invention prevented many exploding clutches as strong as the clutch could be made, from flying all over the place. It was able to enclose the remaining parts inside of the 360 degree catch-all metal shield. This was a real “scattershield.”

My hat is off to Joe Schubeck for his ingenious development and that every time I see that red FED, silently, I thank him for saving tons of racers lives from the ravages of exploding clutches and flying metal pieces in all drag race cars. Sorry, you did not invent it in early 1960.

“I had built my own tubular chassis,” explained Schubeck. “that was the first tube chassis in 1958, and then in 1959, I rounded up a bunch of people that wanted them. So, I found myself in business. I called it Lakewood Chassis Company.”

"One of the most difficult pieces to construct was the aluminum transmission bell housing. He knew there had to be a better way to manufacture the part and while visiting a fabrication shop in Cleveland, he learned about a machine called the Hydroform."

"Through persistence and hard work, he developed a die to put in the Hydroform and 20 seconds after the engineer flipped on the machine, Schubeck was holding a gorgeous, seamless, aluminum bell housing. It was a tremendous product. His old friend, Jack Harris knew what it might mean to the industry. Across the country, drag racing was plagued with flywheel and clutch explosions. Chunks of cast iron were flying into the grandstands, blowing cars in half, sometimes proving fatal for drivers and spectators."

“It was obvious that what I needed was to make a bellhousing out of steel,” said Schubeck, “and Jack Harris told me: “If you could make that thing out of steel and it will contain that clutch, you would have a multi-million dollar product on your hands.”

"The catch to developing such a coveted product was that Schubeck was going to have to retire as a driver. He reluctantly stepped away from the cockpit, and the move paid off. Before long, he had two shifts going seven days a week, putting skid loads of new steel bell housings on trucks."

Note 3


Our similar unit was purchased at Reath Automotive in Long Beach, CA (similar to the ad below)


The curved, metal scattershield would bolt on to the bellhousing, while the lower plate would go underneath the housing with the provided brackets. When it was installed, it looked like it would withstand a hand grenade explosion. The modified, floorboard was neatly attached back in place and we were almost ready to go racing.

Our scattershield was 1959-60 model that was the standard protection unit for drag racers at the time. A year later, the full 360 degree complete scattershield was made by Joe Shubeck for better protection and safety.

The dragstrip approved two piece scattershield was part of our build. It had protected us from any problem as installed.

But, the power of an exploding clutch from extreme horsepower, 292 c.i. 671 powered SBC blew that shield to bits. When we looked inside of our 40 Willys , the next day at while it was still wedged into the fence, that shield was nowhere to be found. The drag strip surface cleaner guys said they did not find any big scattershield parts. There was a huge hole in the floorboard of the Willy’s blackened interior.

What we found were bits and pieces of the original bellhousing and other unknown chunks of metal wedged into the dash, the door panels, and other parts of the interior. The discovery was also in addition to the melted seat frame, the now, gone Moon Tank + Foot Pedal and cracked glass and frames.

Did the scattershield do its job? Well, my brother wore a Bell Helmet that protected his head on the jump and rolling in the gravel after the timing lights. So, if the scattershield was not there, it probably would have been worse than it was that evening.

 

This thread seems like a good place to post this picture:

 

Not in a power plant…a stick is the main welder for almost anything.