I'm starting to think about how I want to build the 327 for my '57. I want it to make 1960's power and drive like a 1960's built hot rod. I'm starting to research early roller cams, trying to learn about Ed Winfield and Chet Herbert, etc. I'm hoping someone might have specs for some early roller cams, specifically for a SBC in a car not a full-on dragster. Trying to figure out what what considered the go-to combo for the race crowd that was a step above the 30-30 cams but not quite into rail dragsters. Seems like it's hard to find information in that area, the street racers must've been good at keeping their secrets?
I ran two different cams in my race car. This was a dirt track car and you have to have good low end torque to pull off the corner (before wings). I had an Isky 505-T and a Racer Brown 42R. Both were roller cams. The Racer Brown had better high rpm performance than the Isky, I believe it had a bit more duration. At any rate I always wanted to try the Isky cam on the street. I thought it would perform well. The engine idled well and pulled hard at low rpm. I had one LT1 short block with all the good Chevy parts except it had 8.5:1 compression. It was a sort of back-up engine. I had been running a destroked 400 in the car (377 cu in) and wanted to go to a USAC race. USAC limited displacement to 355 cu in. The only fresh short block I had was the 8.5:1. I put it in the car with the Racer Brown cam and it had absolutely no low end torque. The 377 had plenty with this cam (11:1). It would run good if you wound it up, but it had nothing down low. I swapped out the cam for the Isky and all the bottom end torque came back. The lower compression ratio didn't car for the increased duration.
Sooooooooo...is this gonna be a driver or more of a car show drive-in piece. (Nothing worng with either..just need to know how you plan to use it !) You don't HAFTA use a roller to get the power and rumpity-rump of a 60's piece. I have a hydraulic roller in my SBF but....it was made for a roller. Your 327 wasn't. You can make some 'unbelievable" power out of a FT cam and save a ****-load of bucks do'in it ...it's just the 'break-in thang' with a hydraulic FT that gives US all a case of the ****-puckers during break-in. ROLLERS not-so-much. What camshaft to run.... I tell all my buddies to look (and listen) real hard to Dirt track cams. Tight LSA's...plenty of duration...sensible lift numbers. When ya think about street driving... good low end torque(power when at traffic lights=power off the corners) Sensible lift numbers... longivity of the valve train=Lift restriction in certain cl***es LSA numbers are good-and-tight..(lottsa dig down low and killer snotty idle) Rear gears in the high 3's for best street performance. (it will "work" with low 3's but ya need a stick shift to get it around in town.IMHO 6sally6
I was there in the '60s and street roller cams were not a thing. There were several really bad methods of holding the roller lifters square in blocks not designed for them. The noisiest thing I remember was Chet Herbert's rollers were held in alignment by a length of 1/4" square key stock inserted the length of the lifter oil gallery and through rectangular slots in the lifter bodies. Iskenderian had several roller grinds, but again mostly race stuff; the 505 series was too long for street use. The Isky lifters were a tall, heavy fork-and-blade design. The good news is todays SBC solid rollers are much lighter and have better alignment setups. And yes, no one please suggest he wimp out and go with a hydraulic roller. He did say he wants rowdy old school lifter click. Also, as mentioned, to run a longer duration roller cam, it requires at least 11:1 compression to make any low end power. jack vines
I have a set of McGurk rollers installed in my 235/261. The are also held in alignment in a similar manner. I am just removing them and they are going into the museum. Warren
Mostly just trying to learn what was going on when the rollers first started hitting the drag strip in cars. I wasn't around yet but I'd like to learn and preserve the info. As far as my own car I'm going to use modern style link bar lifters but an older "traditional" grind if I can find specs on something that would work in my application. I have one shortblock that has a reasonable cam in it already so if this one is completely balls out that's fine, the 327 shortblock will only be in the car when I'm willing to deal with whatever streetability problems it causes. I read that on certain engines Herbert made a plate that fit the contour of the valley and had slots in it to hold flat spots on the lifters to keep them from spinning. I thought that was interesting since that's more or less how the OE roller blocks held the lifters 30 years later. I've heard some people say they were running rollers for street racing but they didn't say what decade this was in, so I wasn't sure. Think there was another gentleman that said he ran a Herbert roller in his moonshine car in the '50s so wanted to see how common this practice was at the time.
My friend Bob Taylor had a Racer Brown 300 roller in his 327. He won several track championships with it.
+1 - at the time roller lifters were exotic race parts - read that as expensive. Too expensive for this high school kid. Flat tappets on a "3/4" regrind is where we all put our money. Even our lifters were refaced.
The issue as far as I remember from a bit later than the time period mentioned is that the metallurgy for the springs was not up to going from a quarter mile engine which would routinely run a set of springs MAYBE a weekend then toss 'em to a street car, unless you are talking about the saturday night special guy that was just as serious as the drag guy, but chose not to go to the track. You can keep the in-car valve spring compressor and box of new springs at home now, but as 6sally6 says, you can have a really rumpity cam that screams without having to actually copy a 60s high RPM only grind. Especially with roller ramps, to don't need to run m***ive duration to still get the high lift. You are better off with a circle track torque out of the corners profile compared to a 1/4 mile profile if you are driving on the street. You can compare lifts and durations along with required accessories online easily. Then you will know enough to talk to a tech person at one of the cam companies and get the info straight from the source and the place that might just warranty and help after the sale. I get that you want it 'just like the 60s'. I hope you aren't taking that to the point where you hole out the body and frame to the point that it's worthless for the next guy, 'cause they did that back then, too to drop weight.
Awesome pic Alan, thanks! So the rollers were used more in circle track cars than drag/street cars then. I've heard of Racer Brown cams, I will have to research them. I actually have an Isky 505T on the shelf for one of my *cough* mustangs, it's a solid flat tappet version for the SBF. So there's Herbert cams, Racer Brown, Isky, any other brands you guys remember? Did McGurk grind cams or just sell the lifters? Maybe I need to find some books on circle track history. The internet is worthless for trying to research this stuff anymore, it'll never show anything but ads for new parts from Comp. NOT helpful... No don't worry I'm not hacking up the car, the body and ch***is is stock and original and will stay that way with the exception of maybe a steering wheel and Hurst shifter. Boy, here I thought I was on a Hot Rod forum LOL The way I drive I never hammer on it from a stop, I always roll into it if I'm going to get on it. So maybe a period Isky grind would actually work well in my application. The nice thing is if I get an old grind but new style lifters and springs I can get the legitimate 60s performance I'm after but some more modern durability.
Late 60's ran a Racer Brown 280/450 roller in a 337 CI .Straddle type lifter with rev kit in lifter valley. was a decent low to about 6200 cam.
Jack...you are truly a smart man whom I have admired from afar for quite awhile (Speed Talk) BUT..... I don't know about that last statement... 9.5:1 in my SBF (with a roller) gives 'eye-flattening' acceleration in first & second. Maybe 230*-236* duration ain't really considered long. Anyhow.............. 6sally6
NO !! I found that 'rollers' were more of a DRAG race cam than a DIRT track cam. NASCAR circle track engines were different) I was referring to the "specs" of a dirt track engine. LSA...Duration@050...Lift Drag engines were almost completely race only... They used super stiff springs that stop and go idling and lower oil pressure would destroy. (One reason why they "idled" at 1500 RPM or so) Crower....Isky....Crane....Racer Brown....Chet Herbert...Howard and more were the big names in rollers. I searched on line for dirt track engine build and noted the LSA duration and Lift. Then I called Delta Cams and had them grind me a cam with those specs. Worked out great BTW but....even a blind squirrel finds a nut ...sometimes ! 6sally6 You never did say what transmission you were gonna use. BIG factor in streetability and snotty cams
You are too kind sir. As to what ain't really considered long, your 230/236 might be a CompCams Energy street roller. If so, the advdertised duration of those are 268/275. Compare that with the Iskenderian 505 sunbeam recommended above, a family of hard face overlay flat tappet lobes, all with .505" or greater lift and came in several advertised durations: 505T - 290 degrees 505A - 300 degrees 505C - 320 degrees To further confuse things, the 505T was also available in a roller. It is always well to remember, cam duration and engine displacement must go in lockstep. Your 230/236 is strong in your SBF, but would be a total weenie in a 572" BBF. Back to the OPs 327" and your SBF, because today's valve springs are so much better and because roller lifters can handle forces flat tappets cannot, the Extreme Energy rollers can put much quicker lift, much more area under the curve with less advertised duration and overlap. This enables them to function with less compression. The downside is they don't sound nearly as bad-***-rump-rump as the old long duration large overlap high compression builds did. They also aren't blowing half the fuel out the exhaust. Life and camshafts are tradeoffs. jack vines
I have a .500 lift Herbert roller in a 330 sbc in my avatar. I bought the cam & lifters in 1968 but didn't use them until about 2016 and then I didn't use the original roller lifters. I bought new rollers from Doug Herbert(modern design) and new springs. I have 10.2:1 compression with C4b Edelbrock and Holley 3310. I'd love to give you specs but mice ate the cam card while it was in storage. I remember advertised lift was .500 and duration was 300 deg. The transmission is a Doug Nash 4+1 and rear gear is 3.23. The first 4 gears are low and range from about 4.25 to 3.95 rear ratio if compared to a wide ratio 4 speed from the 60 s . 5th is straight through. The distributor gear wear is my biggest issue. The billet cam ate the bronze gear in the first 450 miles and I use melanized gear now and it has gone 4000+ but I will replace it this spring. The engine also has a high volume oil pump so the gear has a higher load on it.
Locally you just didn't hear much about roller cams in street engines during the '60s. Even in the late '60s and early '70s you would see a lot of 301, 327, 331 sbc running the GM "for off-road only" 302 cam available over the counter at the local dealer. But no roller stuff until much later.
Most guys were running flat tappet grinds . . . you just didn't see roller cams much in SBCs on the street. But we did have a lot of nasty flat-tappet grinds. Also, a nasty flat-tappet cam with lots of compression really sounds good! LOL
On the hard face overlay grinds - you really should not run those on the street or you run the risk of having the "cam in the pan" - they needed a high RPM to keep enough lubricating oil on the cam, so you should not idle them down at all. Also, the lifters were a special "chilled iron" lifter - if you ran standard flat tappet lifters they would gall in a hurry.
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