Projects Trying to get my Banger to Freeway speeds???

Right now, 5th gear, flat out, does not sound as high a rpm as say 1st and 2nd flat out.?

Well that's a real good indication that you need to do some discovery on your engine. If it will rev higher in the lower gears it should (is capable of) also rev as high I'm the higher gears UNLESS the engine is just so weak or out of tune and low on torque out put that the load (weight) just holds the engine back (pulls the Rpms down).

The gears are straight factors used in torque multiplication. Engine torque x first gear ratio x rear gear ratio = torque to rear axle. Then divide that by tire radius expressed in feet to get torque on the road. So for example lets say the engine develops 100 ft lbs@2400 rpm, 1st gear is 3.0:1 and rear gear is 4.0:1 and tire is 30" tall. Simple math #s 100x3x4 is 1200ftlbs @ axle / 1.25 is 960 ftlbs at the road.

So a for sure fact is if the Rpms are down the torque is too. With torque down the Rpms can't climb, if the Rpms can't climb you can't keep up. Catch 22 and vicious downward spiral

I really doubt your problem is in the gearing or transmission. I'd bet a bunch on that.

 

I still say dump the 4 banger and put a 283 in it. I got an engine puller and I'll come over and pull it

 

I have to agree with 31Vicky...not a gearing problem. We are talking about a 40 HP motor here, a little more with the compression. How much gear can you pull????

 

You are mistaken. Motor/driveshaft turns 3 3/4 to one tire rotation in 3.78:1

 

you are mistaken...twice. Only one wheel needs to be off the ground unless the differential is locked. The transmission should be in neutral. Why would you want to turn the engine? All he needs to learn is the gear ratio of the rear end

 

283john, your right, I had it backwards. I mentioned turning the crank because I assumed he has a closed driveshaft and driveshaft is hidden. If he jacks up one wheel only then the tire must make two revolutions and count crank turns. All this must be done in high gear 1-1 not overdrive.

 

OK: from my first opening post "We jacked it up and found 1 full rev of the tire produced 1 3/4 rev of the driveshaft." We counted the Driveshaft turns. But only turned the tire 1 rev, should I do more?
It was one wheel, Car in Neutral, Put a tape marker on u-joint, and one on tire and floor. meyer crawled under the car, and I turned the one wheel one full rev.

 

From Piranios Antique Auto sit he stopped his dyno pulls on a stock motor at 2700 rpm.

 

Bill:

because you have an open diff., you need to double the revolutions, so effectively, one rev. of the tire would equal 3.5 revs of the driveshaft. Your rear end gear ratio is approximately 3.5 to one. (probably 3.54 to one)

 

I'd still go around twice to eliminate error.

 

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that a lot of the guys (myself included) are still running closed drive shafts in their early Fords. This is the reason the car needs to be in high gear (1:1) and the engine turned for counting.

Charlie Stephens

 

You could just mark the tire and the drive shaft and roll the car one tire revolution and count the drive shaft turns.

 

Charlie is absolutely correct

 

OK< I'll jack it up, One wheel off the ground, In Neutral. 2 revs of the Tire... Count the driveshaft revs..
WaHo...Were getting there. Thanks for all the advice guys.. And for testing, Well use 2700rpm as a redline mark.
Now, If I just had some winning Lottey numbers .................

 

I have been following this thread with some interest as someone who has a lot of experience driving a stock Model A sedan for many years followed by building a performance based Model A that has been on the road since 2009. I think I have enough experience in both arenas to offer some observations that will hopefully help you achieve your objective with your sedan. If you enjoy your Model A I would encourage you to continue to try working with the banger motor, I don't think you are too far away from the results you want, and a banger powered hot rod is always going to get extra attention from the enthusiasts that appreciate traditional hot rods.

The last couple of posts seem to me to confirm your rear axle ratio at 3.54:1. This is a good ratio for a mild performance build, but it is a poor choice to run with an overdrive, especially a T-5. Depending on your gearbox you have either 125% (0.80 5th gear) or 143% (0.70 5th gear) overdrive which makes your effective rear gear ratio either 2.83:1 or 2.48:1 when you are in 5th gear. You are not making enough horsepower or torque to move a Model A sedan through the atmosphere at 60 or 65 mph with either of those final gear ratios. Those speeds should be achievable, but you're going to need to stay in 4th gear (1:1) to get there unless you're willing to spend a lot more money on engine modifications.

Your current set-up is similar to a stock Model B that is rated at 50 hp, except you still have less carburation than a B with your stock A intake manifold and updraft carburetor. If you have everything tuned to perfection you should be able to reach and sustain 60 mph without any changes, but if you want to cruise at 65 I think you are going to need more compression and more air flow to get there. With your 700R16 Coker Classics your rear tire diameter is 30.18 inches according to the Coker catalog. Your target rpm for 60 mph in 4th gear is therefore 2365, which is within the range of what can be expected from a well-tuned stock A motor, and 65 mph is about 2560 rpm; probably not sustainable with a stock motor, but certainly within the capabilities of a performance Model A build. If you want to get there with your car, I would follow a process of elimination for all the possible troubles with your current set-up, which should get you to the sustainable 60 mph mark, followed by some additional modifications which should get you to a sustainable 65 mph. Remember, in either case you are not likely to achieve those speed objectives in 5th gear because your rpm's are too low to be making enough torque or horsepower to get the job done. Here are the things I would check that won't cost you anything except time and effort, and maybe a gasket or two.

First, your carb is from your description problematic, as it continues to leak even when shut off. Things to check are the float setting, the needle valve (gas with ethanol will attack needles with rubber tips - use a steel needle valve), the height of the main jet (some repro jets are too short and allow gas to siphon out of the float bowl causing rich running and leaks) and make sure all of the internal passages are clean and not plugged. The A carb has a manual enriching device called a GAV that is adjusted from the knob on the right side of the dash below the gas tank. Carbs from 1928 and 1929 generally had a removable seat that opposes the needle valve at the end of the GAV. If the GAV is turned shut too forcefully, the needle can get stuck on the seat and then opening the valve doesn't enrichen the carb as it should, it backs the seat out of position without allowing any additional gas flow. This is an important check for you to make because I guarantee you won't be able to sustain 60 mph if the GAV is shut off. In a properly adjusted A carb you will need to have the GAV open 1/8 to 1/4 turn to maximize power for cruising. They will run with the GAV shut, but they definitely don't make full power. Also if your car has an air filter take it off an put in on your workbench. Model A carbs have the fuel bowl vented to the atmosphere soa pressure drop in the venturi from restriction caused by an air filter will definitely cause the car to run rich, which may affect your power and rpm potential. While you're fiddling with your carburetor, check your intake manifold for vacuum leaks. Common causes are poor sealing at the block, leaking vacuum wiper fittings or rubber hoses, and cracks in the manifold itself. It's easy to check for vacuum leaks with a propane torch, or by squirting oil on gasket edges. If the engine speeds up or the oil disappears you've got yourself a leak.

You also need good ignition to get the most out of an A motor. If your car is still wired with a positive ground, check the coil and make sure that the side of the coil with the plus sign is the one connected to the distributor. If the wires are crossed you will lose spark intensity due to voltage drop in the primary winding of the coil. Check your spark by holding the coil wire about 1/4 inch from a head nut while you manually open the points with the ignition turned on. You should see an intense blue spark that will jump the gap consistently. If not, check the point gap and make sure there's no oil or grease on the point contacts. Also make sure that your plugs are gapped at no more than .030; you can't get maximum rpms if your plug gaps are any wider than that.

You should also recheck your ignition timing. Retarded timing is a frequent cause of lack of performance in banger motors. You didn't say, but I am assuming the Bubba's distributor you bought is the reworked Mallory with centrifugal advance built in. My buddy here in St. Paul was the first to adapt this distributor to bangers and he published the modifications in Secrets of Speed quite a few years ago. I run the same distributor on the Model A motor in my avatar and have played around with different timing settings. That distributor has a stop that maxes out advance at 24 degrees of crankshaft rotation. That is just about perfect for a high performance banger with 7:1 compression or higher, but may not be enough for your 5.5:1 head. I would first check the distributor to make sure it has not come loose in the head. The set screw that holds the distributor in place has a flat spot that bears on the distributor and I have found in my set-up that the distributor has come loose a couple of times. When they loosen up the rotation of the shaft and internals tends to turn the distributor body in the direction of the rotation which retards the timing. Retarded timing will not allow you to get full rpm's out of your motor. I filed a point on the end of the set screw in my car to allow it to bite into the aluminum distributor a bit, I have not had any more problems with the distributor coming loose since I did that. I assume you know how to time your motor; you should use the timing pin to find top dead center on cylinder one and then set the distributor so that the points just break with any movement of the distributor cam. It's very important to make sure all backlash is out of the distributor when you set the timing. Use the rotor to make sure that the distributor cam is rotated as far clockwise as it will go (no lash) when you set the timing. If you want to play with more timing than you can get out of the Mallory set as described with no initial advance, go through the normal process and use a Sharpie pen to make a dot on the base of the distributor that overlaps onto the cylinder head so you have equal marks aligned on the distributor and head that are about 1/16 of an inch wide. Then rotate the distributor body clockwise until the dots are offset by about half the width of the dot. That amount of rotation will give you about 5 degrees of initial advance that will get you closer to the stock total advance of 30 degrees without risking any kickback that could break your starter drive. If you experience any spark knock with advanced initial timing go back to the TDC initial setting before you do any damage. Too much advance will break a Model A crankshaft over time (Ask me how I know).

G. White made an interesting observation about valve springs which I believe is one of the more complicated avenues you should pursue before going the 283 route. Many of the available aftermarket conversions for Model A and B that use one-piece valve guides and straight-stemmed valves have two issues. First, the valves are almost always exhaust valves because of their relatively small size. Many of the replacement valves have thick heads an large radii on the bottom side which make them a lot heavier than the stock Ford valves. Most of the replacement valve guides also push into place without any flange on the bottom side as is included in the original two-piece Ford valve guide. The stock Ford valve spring only provides 40 lbs. of seat pressure, and a guide with no flange will take at least 3/16 of an inch out of the installed spring height, lowering the seat pressure even further. If that's the case, I think valve float at a lower than normal rpm is a distinct possibility. It would be worthwhile to remove the valve chamber side cover and determine if there are flanges on the guides. If there are flanges, I would add 3/16 inch spacers on the valve springs to increase the seat pressure to at least 50 lbs. If the valve springs seat against the block at the top of the valve chamber I would add spacers at least 3/8 inch thick, again to get the seat pressure up around 50 lbs. You can make spacers out of one-inch black iron pipe by cutting them to length on a lath or power hack saw, or 3/16 inch thick machined steel spacers are available from Charlie Yapp's Scalded Dog speed parts for around $20.00 for a set of eight. One other note on cams and valve timing is that your "Touring" cam may not be doing much to raise your overall horsepower. Many of the touring grinds are simply the same as a B cam that has the timing events retarded to move the torque curve up the rpm scale. This is also working against your current gearing by dropping you out of the fat part of the torque curve with the rpm drop you are getting in 5th gear.

If you exhaust all of these possibilities and still want to go faster (I know you will) I recommend two changes that will help, and one that can't hurt. First, I think you need more compression to get the power output you need. I would recommend an iron Lion head, or wait for the 7:1 iron Winfield head being developed by Tod Buttermore (I think that's the correct name; check for high compression head updates on FordBarn). You could go higher on compression but you would have to spend more money to get one of the older aluminum heads that are now routinely selling for $750-800.00. Unless you are an adept builder I would recommend staying away from the aluminum Winfield reproductions from the Specialty Ford guys in California. Those heads can be made to run, but they are not great castings when it comes to combustion chamber shape and location which affects gasket fit and sealing capability. Second, I think you need more carburetor, but dual carbs are hard to tune and run on the street. Guys seem to have good luck with the two-barrel Webbers, and with single downdraft manifolds with any of the Ford downdrafts. Don't use a Stromberg 81 on a single manifold, it's too small; the 48 or 97's work well and are easy to tune. The change that can't hurt is a higher than stock flowing exhaust. Aries makes a performance muffler that replaces the stock A piece, or you can go with headers and a custom exhaust. Either will help but probably isn't mandatory for what you are doing.

Hope this helps, and good luck!!

 

Great post 5280

 

GREAT POST INDEED... Thank you for taking that time to write it up.
That is some serious homework.,,,,,,

 

Great post, is an understatement!! Now you have a whole lot of things to check out that should get you up to speed. Isn't it great how knowledgeable people are willing to share it with other like minded folks.

 

It is unbelievable... that's what I hang out here... just great car people.. Most of my friends are HAMB'ers...
I've learned a lot and continue too.. Thanks ... I do have a whole lot to check out... Waiting on the weather here to break, Spring is coming (I hope).

 

5280A2...that's an unbelievably great post. Marked on my top 10 Best HAMB Banger Tech EVER.
Thank you for sharing

 

I have had so much fun with my hopped up Model A that I am happy to share what experience I have had in hopes that others will enjoy their cars and not be discouraged by the inevitable setbacks that are part of the character of our hobby. When I was building my roadster pickup the information from the H.A.M.B. was super valuable, so I am pleased to maybe be able to give something back that helps someone else. I dug up a couple of pictures of valve guides and valve spring spacers that might help illustrate what it takes to get adequate valve spring pressure in a performance banger motor. The first picture shows the stock Model A two-piece guide that slips up into the block from the inside of the valve chamber. The split guide accommodated the mushroom valve stems on stock A and B valves. Note the flange I mentioned in the earlier post that acts as a stop for the guide in the block, and also spaces the valve spring away from the block. On the right of the photo you can see the machined spacer sold by Charlie Yapp, and on the left you can see the second, homemade spacer cut out of a length of one-inch pipe. The second photo shows how the components are assembled in my block; I use the machined spacer between the guide and the block, and the fabricated pipe spacer between the guide and the valve spring. This combo lowers part of the guide out of the intake or exhaust port, and provides the 60 lbs. of seat pressure recommended by the grinder of the cam I am running. You can make this stuff at home and it works.





By the way, I am running a Brierly cam; if you are serious about banger performance his book is a must-have.

 

By the way, I am running a Brierly cam; if you are serious about banger performance his book is a must-have.

Yep I agree, his book is an entertaining and informative read. Well worth the cheap purchase price.

 

@5280A2 thanks a lot. I don't even have a banger and I'm learning from your posts. I gather so much knowledge from the HAMB. I hope the OP can get to where he enjoys running his banger.

 

5280A2 you have made my day, I have been following this thread with earnest myself, in hopes that someone would post valuable info, who has waded through the muck in order to get to the performance that is possible with a banger,(without spending 8grand), I might add. Again thanks Tierod for starting this thread, as I know I am learning more than I thought possible.

 

5280A2 you nailed it. It was nice to see someone explain the problem and then explain what needed done and why. Thanks

 

excellent 5280A2. Now get to work Bill!

 

In reading over the posts, I did not see it mentioned but have you checked the compression for each cylinder and what the spark plugs look like after you drive it a distance? Buying a rebuilt motor doesn't guarantee that everything is right.

I bought a stock '29 sedan a few years back that couldn't get out of it's own way. Found that one of the problems was weak compression. Don't remember which it was but I did grind the valves and set the clearance. It doubled the horsepower. A model A can run on a cylinder or two, the other two just help it along better.

I also believe that the gearing isn't your problem. I have a pick-up that I changed the gear ratio to get more highway speed. What I got was lower engine speed and doggie performance.

You have been given plenty of good information on troubleshooting your banger and what to have for expectations. I am interested in what you find.

A side note: With the sedan that I spoke of above. I now have a flathead in it and it is a blast to drive.

Neal

 

Well folks, I gave in...without a garage or tools to work on this, I've decided to Sell..
Putting all the numbers and calculations together, seemed like I was not going to meet my goal, before running out of cash.
I wish to thank all the great replies from the HAMB'ers... great people indeed.

I ended up buying a 27 Tudor Hotrod. V8-Auto-9" rear, well crafted build...
it's a driver...needs paint (in primer) and it does freeway speed all day long.. In fact has gone from Indy to the Oakland Roadster show....and to FLA...that is what the guy I bought it from, built it for. He just finishes the most bitchin 29 Closed Pickup that I have seen in quite a while, I'm going to try to talk him into letting me do a photo shoot..

I thought over this project and my love of "A's" , so this decision was not a easy one.

So, I'll take some picture, and start another post on the do's and don'ts .
My good friend "MEYER" has a nice garage and lets me do maintenance, but no room for projects... in fact were starting a new one.. But I'll let him start that thread. So basic fix, I'm OK...big stuff, well, we'll work that one out I guess.
Thanks again... for all your great advice.. hope to see some of you this summer...
Bill j.
the "TIEROD"

 

Good luck with your new purchase and it is the smart thing to do if you figure out that you aren't going to be able to finish the project you are working on.

 

Me too, Id be scared

That's what I say. Then you can run with the big boys