Two Hemis and a brain teaser!

Keep in mind that the horsepower and torque numbers in the table are the average between 2500 and 6500, not just the peak numbers. You have to make a bunch of power up top to compensate out the numbers down at 2500 RPM.

The HH heads really aren't that far removed from the basic '54 and '55 casting, they were in fact modeled off a set of "555"s. They do shed a hundred pounds or so of the final engine weight.

Cheers, Mark

 

Hi Scooter, Well my first question is why do you want to run the early block? If you have sourced the 354 heads, then where is the rest of the 354? My rulebook says that the strongest block is a stock block so we always minimize the overbore, that being said, we have bored early blocks to 4.0 (at customers demand). The sonic check must show near perfect core locations for big bores. I do not believe that the extra 20 inches would be a major factor in making hp-torque. Use 10:1 comp ( your piston supplier will need an accurate combuston chamber cc) and a healthy cam (your 230 @50 might be a bit lumpy). It will be tough to go over .500 lift without head mods (didn't this get discussed earlier?) and I am not convinced that a street Hemi needs more than .500 lift unless your idea of street use includes alot of time at 6000 rpm ....
A solid lifter cam would be a nice touch if you have adjustable rockers, but I would not use adj pushrods from a mtce stand point.

Just my .02 worth

Gary

 

Thanks for your input Gary! Glad to see you ring in here.

The 354 p***enger heads are from another HAMBer and he made me a really good deal on them and were from, I believe he said, his father's engine? I had to use a later 331 head or 354 head because I need the water ports. My manifold has no provisions for water and cannot be modified to have them because of the way it's laid out.

Next. Why I'm using the blocks. Why not? I have them and I don't see any reason why they can't be built. I've seen plenty of really great 331's on the street that are *****in' runners and very reliable. I see no reason to sell them. Plus, I'll take it a step further and say it goes a little deeper than that. My father had the exact same 1953, 331 Chrysler Hemi in his Model A, so in a way, I'm sort of doing it for him as well. And one last reason, although a 354 or short bell 331 may be less trouble to build and has the extra cubes I was looking for (in the beginning when I started thinking about it), I don't have the extra cash for the 354 block that are now pulling some big money and I've set my entire ch***is as well as transmission up for the extended bell motor anyway. Sure I could sell and swap until I'm blue in the face.... or... I could build a decent engine out of what I already have of which I paid very little for to begin with and just do my part to keep these less than desirable blocks on the road.

Now... with all that being said. I also agree that the best way to handle all this is to only do a .040 or .060 overbore to clean up any inperfections and add a couple cubes to the package and just keep it simple. If I opt for the .120/.125 overbore, it will be with the less than perfect block (if it can handle it) and just make a totally insane blown motor out of it. I'm opting NOT to go with the huge overbore in this case and I'm going to do a lot more research and number running to figure out the best cam for the package. As far as the lift is conerned, I have no trouble doing the work required to the heads and/or guides (as mentioned by B*** earlier) that need to be done to make the RIGHT cam work. The heads need some attention anyway.

To me, all these early Hemis are great engines, rather we're talking a little 241 Red Ram or a 392 Chrysler Imperial power plant. I'm going to build what I've got and do what I can. I think the results will be favorable and pleasing... especially in a little Model A!

 

So, anyone want to talk about ignition for my application? I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, magnetos but the prices seem to be outragous. Even if I bought a used one and had it freshened up, it seems like we're still talking big bucks (depending on how long I'm willing to wait for that smokin' deal on that mag being sold by a guy who doesn't know what he has). I know they will deliver more than enough energy to handle ANY performance needs, but I'm not so sure I really NEED to have anything more than a good HEI for my application. Not to mention, a good friend of mine has a new one that I KNOW will work for my application that I can pay a good price for... But will I be unhappy if I choose the HEI over finding a good used mag, rebuilding it and running it instead? People had mentioned EFI interference with mags, but I talked to Taylor/Vertex and they said that running the right kind of wires will elliminate that. So that levels the playing field right there.

I'm torn. Anyone care to comment?

 

Have you ever thought of getting an SBC Magneto and converting it? I think Hot Heads sells the kit to adapt an SBC dist. to a hemi. and SBC Magnetos are half the cost of hemi ones on ebay...I think it would work??

Check it out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mag-...yZ133192QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

AND

http://hothemiheads.com/ignition_system/distributor_adapters.html

 

I think a call to Hot Heads by Scooter would resolve any doubts of misconceptions about how realistic his goal is of 350-400 HP. Keep in mind that the purpose of the Engine Masters series is to reveal and introduce products and aficionados that specialize in those specialty areas and engines and show cutting edge and current state of the art technology in each of those fields. A protege' of mine was also featured in that same article with his FE Super Stock engine. I don't think that any of those builders went to that challenge with a combo that was just average, they went there with the intention of going "balls out" with there engines for maximum output, and I'd say Hot Heads did as well. And that there results of that were revealed in the build. The article didn't say much about the mods done to the engine, but you can bet the heads were probably ported big time if not CNC'd for maximum power just as the rest of the builders were, as was the compression bumped to the limit no doubt, and prepped just like an all out race engine. So trying to compare the results they obtained in the build, with Scooters much more milder street version with stock heads and streetable compression and probably tamer cam, its only natural to fall short of the mark that Hot Heads set with their much more radical build. But, also thinking you will equal or exceed the efforts of the Hot Head gurus with a truly antiquated combination of pieces isn't realistic either.....I think this topic has become more of a debate as to whether or not 350-400 horses is possible with his engine. But, regardless, he will have an awful sweet ride. Any Hemi in a hot rod is for sure very cool, and with a 6 speed to boot, you can't get any cooler than that. He still should be pleased with the power, whatever it is, and not be disappointed if it isn't what he expects.....

 

YES! In fact, that's exactly what I would do if I were to run a used/rebuilt mag. At the H-word in any description, and the price virtually doubles. Just to add to this, the HEI that I'm very seriously buying from my buddy will be adapted in that fashion.

By the way... is anyone running one of those adapters? Does it raise the overall cap height? I'm a little concerned about cowl/firewall clearance issues.

 

One thing is for sure, no matter WHAT anyone says here I'm going to talk to the manufacturer's for final varification on parts matching and specs. I would be an idiot not to do that. I think it's very good that we're all chatting about all this though. I think there's a lot to be learned in this thread. LOTS of things to compare, contrast and relate to.

Speaking of comparing, I really don't think MAW is off base at all. I've got a pretty good idea of what went into Bob's motor and knowing what the probable gain in RPM and general performance is of each of those modifications, it's fairly easy to work backwords from what might be considered in this case to be a "perfectly extreme" 331. I think it's a VERY good comparison. Even though that engine is a far cry from what I'm building, it SHOULD be used for comparison sake AS LONG as the modifications are taken note of and considered.

I also FULLY agree with MAW that the "555" heads were considered the "bee's knees" of Hemi heads and various racers who ran 392 blocks even ran them because of how well they flow. The advertised qualities of the HHH heads is that they flow well and have been said to flow comparatively TO those heads. The big advantage is the aluminum construction which drastically reduces the weight. For a street car, the weight can be saved in other places, where in racing you just shouldn't have ANY extra weight. To say that stock heads can't and won't flow as well as the HHH heads is completely false. Porting and polishing in the CORRECT places will help an already good flowing head. Unfortunately, stock heads are just heavy as hell. In a street car that wouldn't make much difference though.

NOW! I'm not planning on running "555" heads OR HHH heads, but the heads I have are considered a good flowing stock head and I'm more than likely going to be doing some polishing at the very minimum to improve the flow anyway.

Seriously though... Looking back at people's responses and from the things I've read and learned about early Hemi's I'm going to be a little suprised if I don't come close to 350-400 peak HP mark. The key word here is PEAK. Peak horsepower. Whatever I do get, the rest of the drive train is equiped to handle the peak I would like to get. Again though... I'll just be stoked to get it all together and fire it up. I'm sure I won't be complaining to much if I fall short. It's probably going to scare the hell out of me anyway. HAHA!

 

The pics of your project seem to be an awesome foundation for your car. I hope you continue to show updated photos of your progress all the way to completion. Whether your mill achieves the #'s you have as a goal is probably a moot point. But it did and does make for an interesting discussion. Sometimes its easy for my views to become biased because of my profession and experiences with writing engine building tech articles where you speak in a more "matter of fact" tone, so please, dont think that any of my comments were meant to belittle or demean your efforts, or meant to be insulting towards you carrying a derogatory overtone! Its just easy to get caught up in the moment with discussions of this nature. Accept my most sincere apologies if you felt the least bit slighted or insulted by any of that....

 

HAHA! Not at all brotha'! Hope you didn't feel that way either. Just dig a good in-depth debate/discussion about good 'ol engine tech! I don't doubt for a moment you know what's goin' on! Just keeping the door open to new thoughts and discussion. Seems like good strong debate can rally up some hard feelings for some people because they feel like they're being attacked or something. In this thread I keep the debate going to keep the good insightful discussion going.

The more we can learn the more we can enjoy this hobby!

If you do an advanced ***le search for "Modified Murray", you'll see about 22 threads related to the build. Been trying to keep the car a HAMB build, if you will. A lot of the parts came from HAMBers, and a lot of what I've learned in the past couple years related to cars has been absorbed from here. Check out the build when you get a chance.

Great thread, a lot learned... Still waiting for DE SOTO to come back and raise some HELL at this point!!

 

I bought one...and sent it right back. look like a freaking flag pole on the back of the motor(with an hei) a mag might be taller.

 

Good to know! Thanks Jimmy!

Looks like I need to get some dimensions from HHH on the adapter. If it stands up too high, it's just not going to work out.

 

Eewww. Guess that kills that idea...

 

I've got a Chevy Mallory Super Mag I plan on cutting down and adapting to fit. Might not happen for a couple of months but I'll do***ent it. No reason you have to leave it it's stock length.

 

Hi Scooter, well your logic for using the early block is un***ailable and your ch***is setup looks fab.
Now, being a Mopar kinda guy I must ask why not use the tried and proven Mopar electronic? They are the same size as original, produce more that enough spark for any street car, and are 'almost' a drop in, and you can hide the box under the dash...did I say how well priced they are? A complete package from Chrysler runs just over $200 and I'll make you a deal on a new intermediate shaft and gear to fill the gap or you can counterbore the top of the block 0.25" and use the stock shaft. I know that if you keep this going long enough you'll have more opinions on 'how to do, or what to use' than you can digest gracefully... Your heads will work fine, port size is the same as the 392 and I don't recall them having problems. Match a 340 spring to your chosen profile ( one of my favorites is Crower #31242) but keep the open pressure within reason (300#) to keep friction and valve train wear to a minimum. You are using fresh rockers ***y's aren't you??? Call if ya want to chat.
Gary

 

You're totally right... the longer this goes the more opinions. I'm stubborn though. I'll end up doing exactly what I want to do in the end anyway. The research to do the right thing will be done though. Oh, and I'll look into the Mopar unit you mentioned. Thanks for the tips!!