Finally got around to reading the article by Dan Kahn in Rod & Custom about traditional front suspension set-ups. One of the best writings I've seen on the subject yet, covering a little bit on each of the current popular set-ups. The Pete & Jakes catalog also contains a well written article on the subject to help it's customers decide which way is best for them. (Hairpins, split bones, 4-bar...Vega, Mustang or F100 box, etc). What I'm wondering is...how low can you get the front of an A-bone using the original style UN-split wishbones....and how good is such a set-up? According to the die-cast model, Milner's car ran un-split bones...but I'm not sure if the actual movie car was set up that way...anyone know for sure...and what steering box was used? (I know Milner's car was a 32, and I was talking about Model A frames...but I figured the same basic rules would apply to either.) I realize that "modern" engines create clearance problems with the original style bones, and it would require some fabrication to employ the pivot ball with anything other than a stock Ford drivetrain...but I think even I could work around that and make something fit! To give you an idea of what I'm shooting for here...I've desided to consolidate a few project ideas, to make three ideas meld into TWO project cars. First off, the Priority Project is to get the 49 Chev running and roadworthy this Spring, and then I'll tackle the next guy in line...the dreaded Vickup! My plan is to save all of the stuff that comes out of the Chevy for use in the Vickup...the trans, column, shift linkage, 215 motor parts, generator, wiring, front brakes, torque tube, rear axle, etc...and use them (along with a GOOD 215 Chevy) on a Model A frame. I want to keep the project looking ENTIRELY early 50s...and I like the idea of un-split bones on an old Ford axle with Chevy spindles and brakes, and the rest of the parts put into play as well. So....any tricks or traps to be aware of when employing un-split bones? Most of the stuff I've read on the subject of front ends revolves around four bar, split bones or hairpins...what's the low-down on the old style??? Let's hear some input and see some pics if possible!!
I'm using an unsplit bone setup in my 36, I have a 46 axle and bones and with a powerglide it will work, tight but will work. The thinking was that split bones would help the car handle better, but with the spring pivot in the centerline of the car and with good shocks the best way for a early ford axle is to use the unsplit bones, so that the axle and bones pivot through the same centerline with no binding, Clearance problems usually arise with late model transmissions between the frame rails. Hope this helps
This wishbone is stock. It's not necessary to split for a flat motor. I believe the split wishbone thing came about to get the early Olds and Caddy V8 bell housings and/or starter motors into the frame. It became so popular for a hot rod that it has become a styling statement. I wouldn't split it if it wasn't necessary. I think they ride and handle better unsplit.
It's not how low you can get unsplit wishbones but rather getting them on there at all with late model powerplants. Even if you fab something to hold the wishbone ball the configuration of oilpan and bellhousing may well not let you put the ball where it needs to be for proper axle caster. It may be doable, with enough effort almost anything is, but the significant h***le of it when subbing non-flathead motors in is the reason people started splitting 'bones in the first place. It boils down to how much of a pain in the tookus you're willing to tolerate to make it happen. As to how low you can go that shouldn't be a big problem. With a typical dropped axle and a reversed-eye de-arched spring you're talking about 5" of total ch***is drop over stock height. The 'bone itself will be raised about 2" closer to the frame rail. If you use a deep drop steering arm to put the tie-rod under the bones then you should have sufficient travel left to keep them from hitting the rail.
Tommy, Your car's stance looks absolutely fantastic. And it's refreshing to see someone illustrate a point with his own car, rather than a pic taken of someone else's. What axle and springs do you have? And how did you get your rear end so low? Do you have any close-up pictures? That's the first time (that I remember) that I saw an image of your car larger than the usual tiny avatar. I've been missing out. Your car really looks great. --Matt
The axle is an unknown dropped and filled axle with a reversed eye spring. The rear is all stock 32 with 4" shackles. It's not that low in the rear. It had a nice rake with the 700-16 rear tires.
Fat Hack the only way to find out is to slide your engine/trans in there and see what's going to be involved. I can tell you for sure you're going to need either a frame stretch or one heck of a firewall recess to handle a 6 cylinder in a Model A. I couldn't even begin to guess what oilpan/wishbone clearance problems might arise from using the 6-banger. You mentioned a 37 Ford with an SBC in a 40 frame. That's a considerably bigger and differently shaped ch***is with a much longer wishbone and I'm not sure that much direct comparison can be made to a 6 cylinder in a Model A ch***is. The axle drop itself won't affect the wishbone to frame rail clearance but any spring dropping definitely will. If you stick to a normal spring with a reversed eyes then you shouldn't have any problem at all.
I may be wrong, Cause I never built one, but I thought the whole split bones thing on an "A" frame had to do with the fact that the "BALL" at the end of the bones mounted to the bellhousing or trans of a stock model A. So any drivetrain other than stock required fabbing a crossmember to mount the bones to, or split them and mount them at the side rails. The latter seemed to be the more popular solution to this problem. Correct me if I'm wrong. Billy
Fat Hack, Just to give you something to think about. How about raising the motor and trans in the ch***is, enough to make the whole shebang mount over the wishbone. Then realign the drivetrain to get the proper driveshaft/ u-joint phasing? I'll give you a hint seeing as how you always come up with references to past builds. See if you can find any info on the ch***is John Buterra built for his turbe V6 A roadster. He mounted the engine/trans higher than was the usual practice for additional ground clearance, but I think it could be incorporated to solve just the problem you are facing. Frank
I wasn't refering to the type of axle locator used on the car but the fact that he raised the engine/trans combo to get it up off the ground. My point being that you could incorporate that same idea and still keep the wishbone by building a crossmember for the ball socket mount under the trans. at whatever height it would need to be for proper caster on the frontend. Also keep in mind that caster can be adjusted to a certain degree by pie cutting the wishbone right behind where it mounts to the axle. With all of the variables I'm sure you could keep the wishbone, maintain correct caster and still keep the driveline in phase by utilizing a higher than normal engine/trans installation height. Frank
Yea, freaky looking , just like those AA/FA's that used to put on such a great show. Your creation is a little off the wall anyway so why not give it a somewhat cartoon look? Just throwing out some ideas, not suggesting they are worth your time of day. Frank
Fat Hack -- If you opt for an unsplit wishbone the '33-'34 is the better choice because of its wide rear yoke which moves the 'bones' outward where they p*** by the oil pan and bellhousing. You could fab a K-member like the one in a Deuce frame to mount the trans and provide a connection point for the rear of the wishbone. There's a Tardel repro K-member in the thread about "AV8 cutch and brake pedal location" by Levi Cl***ic that should give you some idea of how it's constructed. Also, if you'd like I'll e-mail you a dimensioned drawing of a Deuce K-member cut down to fit in a Model A frame.
Hey FatHack great project man. Its refreshing to here of someone using the old 6 bangers in there rods. The 32 ford wishbone measures 48 inches from perch center to pivit ball center. The 34 ford is 45 inches. They are the same width. Cyclone made an adapter to go from a chevy 6 to the early ford toploader, if you were to use a 32 k member, everthing just bolts up. At the price of 32 k- members, and 32 and 34 wishbones, and trying to find a cyclone adapter? Wow! gets real expensive fast. Consider a home made type X'member set-up like the 34 and up fords. Your sure don't need a 32 k- member if your not going to bolt in a ford toploader. Or just find some A bones or 35 and up, split them and be done with it. It will still be cool. Hope this helps................. -------------------------------------------------------- OPOSSUM BENDERS "Central Missouri Chapter"
Depending on how low you want your front end, you could have clearance problems with the frame rails. It would have to be very low, such as a suicide-type front end. Also, your tie rod can interfere, or drag link if you're running cross steering. Lots of things to keep in mind. An unsplit wishbone is definitely better for proper suspension geometry.
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