Unquestioned Flathead "Truths"-Questioned.

The Chevy distributor, either window or HEI, depending on the look you want, is surely one of the best stock pieces out there. Parts to modify and shorten its timing curve are readily available, its vac advance is probably much better than early Mallory/early Ford style, and of course as a centrifugal design it can be set and altered on the engine right in your driveway, unlike the Loadamatic. It is a cl***ic design that is better than many speed equipment distributors, certainly GREATLY preferable to recent Mallorys.
Remember, timing is somewhat individual to the engine and its use, but there are good recommended FH curves as starting point. The Loadamatic requires a good deal more attention to the actual engine it is on, because that weak little venturi signal varies between stockers and will vary very widely between modified engines. Setting it up on a machine will,at best, get it in the ball park, and Ford distributor machine settings will be nearly worthless for a dual carb engine's full throttle curve.

 

The short answer is that people are idiots...

Actually, half the stuff people are wetting themselves to get there hands on for the flathead is ****.

Does anyone really think a br*** head with no water jacket is really the hot ticket for a flathead? I didn't think so, and yet if you were ever to find a good set, you'd probably be out 2k+ to bring them home.

Flatheads are as much or more about looks as they are about performance. A lot of people think high rise regualar intakes look KOOL. That's enough for most people to make the plunge.

 

Well I get kinda weird about talking about it before it's built at this point. Anything can happen...

But it's 3 5/16" X 4" 8BA...
Un-relieved block, ported by yours truely
Jenks ground Potvin 3/8s Super cam (Ground on the original Potvin Machine)
1.5" High-Flow valves (I kept them at 1.5 for convenience and because I wanted to keep the torque down low)
Original Johnson Adjustables
Navarro (Kinda Rare) early Dogbone Super Dual Intake with 2 94s (Built by Jobe)
Navarro Heads.
Compression will be kinda high at around 8:1 but I like it that way
8Ba Dizzy (Modified by Jobe)

 

I did this w/ an 8BA...motor runs like a top.

 

Thanks for the input. I understand about the possibility of changes. Sometimes parts come along at a price that is impossible to p*** up. But your plan is in the same streetable range as my plan. Mild cam with a small amount of port work and high flow valves to improve the air flow.

With your Navarro heads are you planning on running domed pistons?
Are you going to run with port dividers in between the two center cylinders on each side?

 

This was a huge marketing advantage for beginners--the manifold swap was a true bolt-on, at least if purchased with the kit of linkage and tubing most makers sold. The super duals required extracting and changing head studs for the generator bracket, perhaps finding a new belt of unspecified length, perhaps needing work on hoses, dealing with fan issues, going back for the spacer for that, etc. A beginner would have been unlikely to buy everything needed in the first p*** or to make it to work in his rod by Monday. The high risers could be screwed right in by someone doing his first bit of rodding.
I always thought the set back high risers looked funny, but they do have one visual advantage--they preserve the flathead's symmetrical Gothic look.
As for performance...has anyone ever done or seen a back to back dyno or performance/response test of different manifolds on the same engine??
Many flathead performance opinions are shaky extrapolations from what was seen at Muroc in 1952 or comparisons of utterly different engines. There is a dearth of published performance info, and few people have built enough engines to really make valid comparisons. All the engines I have run have been different enough in spec and condition that I can't really compare them in most ways. Ron Holleran and 286 Merc come to mind as people om the internet with enough builds behind them to compare...

 

Jere Jobe told me that the difference between a super and standard is about 1-5hp on his dyno.

He also said that none of the High-Rise intakes work well. He says you want short runners.

He didn't mention any specific Dyno numbers for the High-Rise intakes...

But Jere tests EVERYTHING on his dyno motor. He doesn't make decisions without proof from my experience. He also isn't one of those flathead guys with all the opinions either. If you ask him, he will give you his opinion but you have to ask. And his opinion is based on personal experience not he-said-she-saids.

 

BTT, here's a link to that I just spent an hour looking for http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8813&page=3&pp=20&highlight=flathead+road+test

 

I do remember one of the little books that ran several different manifolds on the same engine on a real dyno. Results as stated above were something like 4 to 5 hp over a regular dual. Doesn't sound like much by today's standard but when you figure the stock engine made 95 to 100hp at best, that's a pretty good percentage increase for a weekend bolt on. I think the major gains with a flathead come from figuring how to get the exhaust out. That costs a bit more.

 

so what was Petejoes solution for the 2pot/stock distributor?

 

Several years ago I spent the time and effort to write up a little article on running dual 94's and the stock dizzy. Search the archives, it has been posted here many times since.

One thing to keep in mind is that it will ALWAYS be a compromise for reasons already covered by Bruce. But it is effective until you get the scratch for a real dizzy. Personally I prefer the Mopar electronic, the GM is just too damn ugly.

Also the article is aimed at the fairly stock 239 or 255 engine with primarily bolt on eye candy. Anyone building a performance engine wouldnt be caught dead with the Lodomatic.

Another subject relating to 94's Id like to see be put to bed once and for all is the total myth that you have to block the power valves in order to run 2 or 3 carbs on a flatty, or Y block for that matter.
I believe Bruce covered that in depth some years ago on here or Fordbarn.

Something else that irks me is the line of "Dont bother with a Merc crank, it only adds 15 hp and 22 ft Lbs of torque". Well yeah if you just read the specs. What it doesnt tell you for starters is that the Merc engines used lower compression heads so they could still run the regular grade piss water gas that was available. Then once you start opening up the bore, ports and valves as well as a cam that extra 1/4" of stroke has a BIG effect. Im not saying that a Merc all reground with bearings or a **** kit isnt expensive; it's all what you want and can justify. Even blowers are almost becoming the norm.

As much as I respect the experimenting of the racers of the 40's-50's, a few of them were as full of **** as a few articles you can read in the mags today. And back then it was easy to get anything published, there was no one to refute you. And over time the bull **** became gospel.

A flatty responds to performance mods so well that it is virtually impossible to screw one up. So everyone became an expert overnight with their own formula of success. If you look at the leading flathead books that are out today you will see the same concepts; they all have their own way of doing things.

Me; I follow Kirbys ideas on a street relief but tempered by Abbins book also. Nothing radical, just attention to details. Dyno runs I made and posted here and elsewhere some years ago proved to me they werent blowing smoke. But a relief isnt for everyone, especially a stocker or a mild buildup.

 

"A flatty responds to performance mods so well that it is virtually impossible to screw one up."

One of the things that really caught my eye about the little dyno test noted above was that everything they did registered on the dyno as an improvement at all speeds tested! That old 99A was hungry for everything it could get! I just wish they had gone on and put in a cam--the stocker is a real cork in the engine.

Another thing for beginners: Realize that horsepower is a computed number, derived mathematically from torque, a measured happening on the dyno. The formula is such that HP stays small, lower than torque, til 5250 RPM just because of the constants in the formula--and mild flatheads stop making anything but a buzzing noise by that RPM level. Look instead at the area covered by the torque curve. A lot of the strength of a flathead is there, in the ability to put out from just off idle til the ports sign off. Any flathead that's remotely streetable, at least if naturally aspirated and not treated to exotic mods, is putting out pathetic HP, almost certainly well below 200, but it will run much stronger than most modern engines running at the same HP level because of that fat curve--that's why, though they are certainly obsolete, they aren't stones and don't block traffic.

 

Hey Guys,

With my limited experience, this certainly proves true for me. Every mod thus far has had a big impact on performance for me. From the ignition, to the duals to the heads. Each bolt on I could feel in the seat of my pants when I took it for a run.

Danny

 

Ancient secret!
Bruce, one of these days I'm gonna make a trip out east with my 37 and take you for a ride with my Stock 8Ba dizzy and dual 94's.
Actually, maybe with all the hub bub about bad experiences with this setup maybe I just got lucky.
My setup pretty much followed exactly what 286merc has been saying well before i even knew what a flathead was.
I think the trick here is a combination.
1. Make darn sure your advance is working properly and rebuild the dizzy totally.
2. use exactly the same style of holley 94's. There are not only throttle body differences, but also base size differences.
3. rebuild the carbs completely using your powervalves. not blocking them.
Find the right combination of jets and powervalves for your engine and al***ude. ie..check 286merc's tech section on this.
4. it has been said running two vacuum lines to each carb is a waste of good copper, because it actually cuts back on the vacuum, but i thought i'd try it anyway.
This 8Ba, now runs cool, is very responsive a start and has all kinds of balls in high speed. I am very happy with it and will do it again on another setup.

 

Say guys... I plan on runnin' 2 94's on a 59ab motor. Any problems with setting them up compared to an 8ba??

Josh

 

Love your motor...very nice...

 

The 59A with early Ford distributor has no issues with carburetion--it has a good centrifugal curve and a slightly primitive vac setup that runs on plain old manifold vacuum. A simple, God-fearing device independent of unnatural dark forces like venturi signal. Twist the rotor against the drive tang in a CCW direction to be sure advance still moves, back off the vac adjuster to light spring pressure, and go. I have a posting around here somewhere with more elaborate directions on fixing one up.

 

Hot Rod just ran an article on flat-head V-8 myths/facts. I think it was last months? My wife bought me a two year subscription just before I went to Korea a year and a half ago. I bought Rod and Custom. I thanked her (again), but told her not to re-up when it comes up in the mail. It's okay, but R&C is more up my alley!

 

So very true but it still cracked me up

 

Anyone running a stock cam anymore? All I hear is "get this get that" type of cam and am wondering if anyone of you guys is running the stocker. And what kind of fuel delivery setup your runnin.

 

I think that at least a 3/4 cam is a good idea because the stocker is just wastefully mild...but if you have a good running stock engine with no reason (or money) to do a teardown, you might as well do a bolt-on build and enjoy what you have.
Check the summary of the old 1954 flathead tests noted a few posts up--those results, which are not bad, are all on a stock short block. Flathead cam changes are quite a thrash.

 

Hey man,

I'm running a stock cam in my 8BA. with hot ignition (mopar small block electronic), sharp super dual with 2 94s and my offy 400 heads its enough to get me speeding tickets and make me happy in my pants.

I'd love to get a cam in the future but with this set up as it sits, its enough to really put a big smile on my face. took a friend out for a drive last night and there was alot of nervous laughing and seat grabbing going on.

the way ive always figured it is this: you can bolt on the speed goodies and have fun with some dialing in so why not do it. do the cam if and when you want to get the heads off and do the adjustable lifters etc. its more involved and the cam wont make alot of difference without the duals and heads anyway.

danny

 

Right on!
Thank you Bruce!

Josh

 

My two cents- because I feel like it...

$0.01: The fiber ones ****. If you do any mods to your motor, use the aluminum gear. I have personally ripped the teeth off a fiber one.

$0.02: Joe Abbin did a bunch of flathead dyno runs in his book "Blown flathead" as well as looked at volumetric flow too. I also recall some Aussie guy that published some info in a Flathead book.

BD

 

If you can find a stock EAB or EAC (Merc) cam ('52 and '53 only) it has a real nice grind for a driver- real close to an Isky 88-B.

 

Thats awsome, you pretty much discribed what I have in store for my motor. You just gave me peice of mind...thanks for the input
~Dan~

 

Thats what I have, sweet! (53)

 

As far as I know my motor is a stock 49 Merc inside. 2 97's (rebuilt by Jere Jobe) and an early Mallory dist. converted to Chrysler electronic inside.

The early Mallorys have gotten pricey because they work so well on the flatty but the same early Mallory for a Chevy is dirt cheap. Modify one of them to fit the flatty and you have a good looking dizzy from that time period. Pertronix makes a drop in module for it now also so you don't have to have that gawd alful HEI hanging off that pretty engine.

No offense but unless you are racing, does a horsepower or two one way or the other really make any difference on the street? You gotta be building a flathead for the look or you are insane. If I loose a HP or 2 with my Eddie Meyer....so what. it's *****in'