Water/Methanol Injection as a gas-saver?

More alcoholic yammering!!

There has been a good deal of discussion (too much for some) here about gasohol and ethanol. J. Mullen brought methanol into the discussion as a possible, and possibly inevitable, alternate fuel (I don't know what position he was taking, if any at all, but I could not find his link to an MIT article on the subject). My interest is in methanol as an additive in water injections systems. I did a search here and could not find any threads on this (might have missed them). So here's one, if you care; it certainly is not required reading.

FWIW, instead of (or in addition to) using ethanol made from foodstock (and the food part would not have to be if the politicians and the lobbies weren't in charge of this), we might be trying methanol, which can be made from garbage. There is more power to be made from methanol, IF the engine is optimized for it (more compression, to start with), but more than a small amount of methanol won't mix with gasoline as ethanol does unless you spend extra for blending agents such as amyl acetate. Also, staight or mixed, methanol is more corrosive than ethanol, and has more handling problems and dangers.

BUT, there IS a way we could be using methanol to save gasoline and make some use of the mountains of garbage we generate, and that is an old technology known in the aircraft engine business as A.D.I., anti-detonation injection, or "water/alky". The great English automotive engineer Harry Ricardo worked on this in the early 20th century, when available gasoline had very low octane and engines were very fuel-inefficient because they had very low compression to stay out of detonation. Ricardo invented the "quench" or "squishband" combustion chamber (as in "closed-chamber heads" vs. "open-chamber" aka "smogger" heads), which allowed compression ratios to be raised a good 50% and saving the British Army a lot of fuel, for which service he was knighted.

But Sir Harry also worked on water injection, and declared that water was the best anti-detonant he ever saw, and would allow considerably higher compression yet, offering yet greater fuel efficiency and power, possibly allowing the use of smaller, lighter engines to do the same jobs, etc., etc.. Mixing the water up to around 50% with methanol works even better and lowers the freezing temperature as compared to straight water. By the late-Thirties this technology was starting to be incorporated into big aircraft engines, with the ADI system switching on at some given high-boost manifold pressure, say 45-60 inches, to quell detonation on take-off and at "war-emergency" power.

It could be used the same way in our cars. Whatever octane of pump gas your engine "needs" is only needed under load. When you are heading to work on a level freeway at 60mph in an ordinary car, your engine might only be putting out twenty five or thirty horsepower, and it doesn't need 87 octane, but maybe only about 50-55. It's only when you accellerate away from a light or up an on-ramp, or when you haul a load up a hill that you need that 87 or whatever octane to keep your engine out of trouble. And you would not need it even then, if you had water injection that switched on under those conditions.

The advantages of water (actually water/alky) injection can be had in a number of ways. If we kept building our engines with the same compression ratios, refineries could be making a whole lot more lower octane gasoline from a barrel of oil than they are able to do now (incidently, this is one reason for mixing ethanol with gasoline; you can make more of the somewhat-lower octane gasoline from a barrel of oil and then bring up the octane to the desired level with the addition of the alcohol). Alternatively, we could manufacture engines with a lot higher compression for more fuel economy (saving petroleum) and power, and be using smaller, lighter engines. And make use of garbage. Yes, it would require some infrastructure changes. Yes, there'd be some inconvenience in adapting, yes lots of people would bitch about it.

During at least the last fifty years there has always been a small, what, "cult"?, of amateurs interested in water injection. The ones who have been into it for a while learn that adding water injection to an engine that does not ping on standard 87 octane fuel will derive little or no benefit. Thus the easy add-on "vapor injectors" and similar gizmos that got popular at the time of the OPEC oil embargo and gas-price run-ups of the mid-'70s were quickly condemned as valueless by testing agencies such as CARB and Consumer Reports. Those who remember that and are mechanically uneducated (including all politicians) still suppose that water injection is an old snake-oil scam. And of course the other clueless group is the snake-oil enthusiasts with their miracle carburetors and spark-enhancers, and they are convinced that the vapor injector they used to have on the family wagon gave them extra power they could feel, and an extra three miles per gallon!!

But there are the smart guys, buying good ADI systems from outfits like Spearco and rebuilding their engines with compression jacked from 8.6 to 10:1, who really do get those gains. My contention is that we all could be doing so. Modern engine computers with multiple feedback sensors are wonderfully able to handle water injection in very sophisticated ways to anticipate and quell engine knock, to replace the present fuel-INefficient EGR system with a very fine spray of ADI fluid under part-throttle conditions, and so forth. And we'd conserve some petroleum.
Alas, it will never happen.

Why carry on about it at this length? Well, I think water-injection is a real cool little technology! I first ran into it when I was around Unlimited hydroplane racing in the Sixties. In the mid-'80s I ordered a Goodman injector and put it on a '78 Ford Fiesta which I'd rebuilt. Unfortunately, though I had slightly cammed-up that engine and made it breathe a little better (i.e., more dynamic compression) I didn't add enough static compression to make best use of the ADI. OTOH, I was able to keep dialing back the water consumption (but I forget what mileage per gallon of water I was getting at the end, if I ever knew). When I sold the Siesta, I filled the fuel tank with high-test, and kept the Goodman ADI system, but I haven't built a high-compression engine to put it on . . . yet. With fuel prices due to go way up again at any time, I'm building a (relatively) high compression engine for my step-van/work-truck.

Anybody here into this stuff?

 

Some time in the 80's Edelbrock sold a water injection set up. I think it was sold as a means of cooling the intake charge and reducing detonation caused by crappy gas.

You may be able to find some info on it using Google, from what I remember, there isn't much to be found about it.

 

There is a company called Snow that makes a methanol injection unit for automotive use. It is a little pricey but it works.

I have an engine that I am probably going to have to methanol spray because of the compression. it is an old race motor and I refuse to reduce the compression. I have been doing this for a long time in engines that needed help like blown motors for example. I don't use it to increase octain but to cool the incoming charge which in turn cools the combustion chamber. Cool combustion chamber less fuel requirement.

I donot think that methanol will ever become a fuel for use by the public as a common fuel. The fumes are too caustic. If it ever happens people like my wife will have to wear a resporator just to leave the house.

I am not going to go into the political end of the discussion and wish the rest of you would do the same. Keep it on a performance auto related thread.

 

I'm putting a snow kit on a blown Big Block Chevy that will come on at a set point of 4LBS. of boost. I will also run an MSD timing retard that kicks in to save the day if for any reason the water/methanol mix isn't flowing when it should be.

 

How about these units now available that uses water but it is supposed to seperate the hydrogen from the water. The on line videos show a mini torch hooked up to the unit to show that it indeed seperated the hydrogen. You get this hydrogen boost for the combustion process which yields like a million miles per gallon or something like that.

 

I use a 30/70 water/meth mixture in my OT dd. It's a 4-banger with big snail, and really benefits from both cooling effect and extra fuel in air charge. Since CA laws limit my access to -32 washer fluid, I have to bootleg it to get my meth.

Mine uses Snow controller that sprays based on boost level.

 

I used a water/alcohol injection system on my built 302 GMC inline 6 .The engine had a bit too much compression for the way I tuned it and was experiencing full throttle detonation.I installed a water/alcohol injection kit from Cooling Mist. Like the Snow kit this has the ability to vary injection depending on blower pressure or engine vacuum in a non blown situation. I tried several different ADI (anti detonation) fluids.Plain water,water-methanol as in washer fluid and denatured alcohol/water, that's Ethanol laced with a little Methanol to make it non drinkable.All the fluids seems to work about the same.
The system worked to a certain extent but not as well as I thought it should.There might have been an issue where the ADI fluid was being injected. And it seemed the engine performance was negatively affected at injection levels high enough to suppress all detonation on 91 octane pump gas. Using 93 Octane resulted in less detonation with out injection.More importantly,after a lot of investigation I found that this system works best on a supercharged engine .....I eventually retuned the engine to eliminate the detonation using convention methods;slightly over rich full throttle jetting and 93 octane fuel.
Some people claim the water injection will affect piston ring seal with long term use........
During WW2 water alcohol injection was tried by many combatant nations but only the US used it in production fighter aircraft on a large scale by Allison.The injection was used to control detonation at high supercharger pressures ,about 25 psi ,in engine installations where conventional induction charge aftercoolers weren't practical.
It was effective at full throttle over boost situations call "War Emergency Power" for a maximum of 5 minutes.Allison found straight water injection at a ratio of 10 parts fuel to one part water was best.The system wasn't used at less than full throttle.

 

www.snowperformance.net is a good place to start for this. If you have time, check out the link to articles on the lower left of their homepage...lots of killer stuff from Hot Rod, PHR, Chevy High Performance and tons of others.
~Andy

 

My Dad told me they had a D john deere with water injection. He said it would tug down and start pulling hard, you would reach down and turn a valve and away she'd go! So it sure isn't anything new. Lippy

 

I have a ethanol injection system on my OT '71 Camaro's 427. I bought it brand new at a garage sale a couple years ago for a whopping $10. It's a very high end unit that operates off engine vacuum and an electronic cicuit board. It is selectable with dip switches to alter the vacuum level it kicks the injection in at.
I have it set for 6 lbs. of vacuum so when I hit the throttle hard, vacuum drops and it injects ethanol/water mix into the carb base. I used to run nothing but premium gas, but I can run regular now and not have any pinging or knocking.
Wish I had known how well it worked because he had two of them NIB, and I only bought one.

 

i think it's a good idea but i think the main roadblock is that the average person is not used to the idea of filling one tank with gas and then another tank with water----they are not used to it, don't want to fuss with it-- thus i don't think it will fly mainly for that reason.

i think using 100 percent ethanol might also be a good idea, but again the average consumer isn't used to the idea of filling 2 tanks---one for E100 and the other for gas(for starting).

 

I am actually going to use a 5 gallon racing cell for my setup. I will be using straight methanol (like you buy from the NHRA methanol) and a vacuum operated switch. When you usually get detonating is under load with a naturally aspirated engine. When you load it the vacuum drops.

When I do the occaisional strip activity I will just turn it off and use race gas. My setup is just to survive the trip to and from. I don't think they will let me run gas class with a methanol spray.

 

I am actually toying with the idea of using the metanol injection for mileage. I have a 427 chevy with about 12:1 compression, and live 11 miles up a windy mountain road. My thought has been to take the LS6 cam out, put a Comp cams 268H in, which would increase the cylinder pressure, and then crank up the mist. I have a snow performance unit. If i could get this thing to run MPG in the teens, on 87 octane, i would be happy. Kinda like a poor mans turbo.

 

This upcoming weekend, on the "Spike" channel, the "Powerblock" series of programs is scheduled to do a test on the water / alcohol injection systems, to include dyno tests.

Check your local listings.
"Horsepower" is the show I believe.

 

That's true. It's covering Snow Performance on HorsepowerTV, for the whole episode. It is really going to open some eyes.

 

The problem i have found in my research, is everyone is talking about max performance and power- big cams, full ignition lead, etc. when i go a little off the norm, i get a bunch of ?????s.

 

Eric,
When I have sprayed one in the past it has been because it was too much engine for fuel available, I guess that would be max performance.

Some of the fellas are just talking about using it as a power adder or even as a way to enhance fuel mileage. Trowing a little alcohol in the mix should not give you big changes as far as I can tell.

If you have too much compression you can use it as a way to deter pre-detonation. So wothnthat in mind it is a way to enhance your performance just because you can build your engine farther.

 

Yes,tight wads used to run gas that was so shitty it was pinging in the gas tank.So they had to turn back the timing and killed some power and fuel mileage and the cheap fuel became expensive.So they injected water at part throttle and were able to jack up the timing when using cheap ass gas.

 

Years ago I had an OT '79 Mustang dd that I commuted 75 miles per day. I had removed ALL the smog stuff including EGR and it pinged on 87 octane with factory timing settings.
Put an Edelbrock "Vara Jection" on it, and no more ping on 87 with water.
In Winter I added 50% isopropyl alcohol, using common gro. store rubbing alcohol. Later on I found some methanol that had been left outside in the rain with a loose cap oin the 55 gal. barrel and the friend that owned it was afraid to put it in his dirt oval car and gave it to me. From then on I mixed methanol/water 50%.
Ran great,and when that damn plastic timing chain sprocket let go @ 150K and I bent some valves, removal of heads revealed almost NO carbon in combustion chambers. The unit finally gave up the ghost before I sold the car @245K, and I couldn't get another as Edelbrock had quit seling them.
If Edelbrock still sold them, I would have gone with a higher C.R on the engine I have built and installed in my Hiboy build.
Dave

 

That O/T Mustang had a carburetor,yes? Why not just rejet the carb and save the extra plumbling and cost?

 

Huh??

 

I think he is suggesting fattening it up. Those cars were built to run lean, running a little fatter may cool the combustion chambers better.

 

In this day and age, running an engine excessively fat to prevent detonation makes no sense at all. especially since he talks about saving the cost of a water injector. The extra fuel comsumption will pay for the water injector in no time, plus it will perform like crap compared to tuning it properly and running a methanol/water mix in the tank. But I think you already know that...

 

Who me?

Remember the one's they used to peddle in JC Whittney? They were around 20-25 bucks as I recall. they were advertised as WWII fighter plane trechnology. Also said you could run them with water or with windshield washer fluid for the added boost of methanol.

 

Not excessively rich,but normal .The EGR cooled the combustion as mentioned by P&Ber..And those very lean cruise mixtures used back 30 years ago actually hurt mileage.

 

I used to make my own. Used the windshield washer jug/plumbing, a holley jet, and a hobbs switch. Not fancy, but did the job.

 

True. I mis-interpreted your post as saying that rich jetting was a viable substitute for water-injection in general, rather than being specific to the early carburated 5.0 mustangs.

 

Somewhere around 1950 Crosley had an engine option available that had 10:1 compression ratio with water/alcohol injection..Search Vitameter...http://crosleyautoclub.com/EngineTree/QuickSilver.html

 

I watched the show but I don't know how much trust to put into these TV shows these days. They seem more like infomercials than actual tests.

Water injection seems like a good idea on a few levels. Water expands when it turns to steam so it adds to combustion pressure as well as cooling and slowing combustion to prevent detonation.

 

The Olds F85 Jetfire 215ci. turbocharged V8 had water-alcohol injection in '63...maybe '62 also?

It's an interesting idea, especially for high compression or boosted engines. I would like to learn a bit more, if there are any other experimenters out there.