History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

From the Grout family history album, a picture of a restored Grout




A steam car in front of the Grout factory.

 

Argonaut Motor Machine Corp., Cleveland, OH, 1959-61

Folks, this is surely a NEW one on me! The lines look great. ANYBODY have
a decent actual photograph?? More background info? ​

 

From Wikipidia, seems the Blackhawk museum "had" one.
But read the description here!

The Argonaut was an American automobile manufactured from 1959 to 1963, or at least the company is listed as being in existence during those years. The Argonaut Motor Machine Corporation was based in Cleveland, Ohio. The company's president was Richard S. Luntz (1919–2006).
The company announced its production plans for a line of U.S.-made luxury cars in September 1958, planned as the finest and most luxurious in the world. The prices quoted ranged from a low of $28,600 to a high of $36,000; a variety of stainless and other special steels were proposed for the car's manufacture. A supercharged V-12 ohc aluminum air-cooled engine developing some 1010 bhp was designed for the Argonaut, and all cars were to carry a four-year guarantee. The company claimed, in its catalogue, that two of its models (the "Smoke" and the "Raceaway") had maximum speeds approaching 240 mph.
A number of high tech features were claimed, among them special tires with interwoven strands of steel to withstand sustained speeds of 200 mph, electric shock absorbers (individually-adjustable from the cockpit) and 3 independent braking systems.
A news article about the Argonaut announcement appeared in The Washington Post on September 14, 1958, and Popular Science magazine published an article with several illustrations in the January 1959 issue, including a photo of a chassis and engine. A number of local articles also appeared in Cleveland area newspapers over the next few years.
In a 1987 interview, Luntz said that an influential group of backers "felt that to put Italian bodies on an American chassis would infuriate the steel companies". In one article, these Italian coachbuilders were stated to be Bertone and Touring. Luntz also stated that 3 Argonaut prototypes were built, but all research since has only verified one surviving example: a 392 cubic inch Chrysler marine V-8 engine and 3-speed manual overdrive transmission mounted in a custom-built rolling chassis, but without any body. This is the chassis that was publicly displayed and pictured in newspaper accounts of the period, and was listed (with photo) in an auction catalog from the late 1970s, then owned by a private New York State collector.
The Blackhawk Museum in Danville CA featured a complete Argonaut automobile from 1988 up to about 1997, but this vehicle's appearance bears only a vague resemblance to the Argonaut Raceaway. Rather, its beautifully-finished boattail speedster body is more akin to a low-slung mid-1930s Duesenberg. This speedster may have been built on the 'show' chassis; Blackhawk literature makes reference to a '240-MPH speedometer' and a chassis that is a 'formidable feat of engineering'. As of 2005, the Blackhawk Museum was unaware of this car's whereabouts.

 

Argonaut
The Argonaut was an American automobile manufactured from 1959 to 1963. Originally called the "Argonaut State Limousine," and later the "Argonaut Motor Machine," this vehicle was planned as the finest and most luxurious car in the world. The prototype was mounted on a Chrysler chassis. The prices quoted ranged from a low of $26,800 to a high of $36,000; a variety of stainless and other special steels were proposed for the car's manufacture. A 12-cylinder ohc aluminum air-cooled engine developing some 1010bhp was designed for the Argonaut; all cars were to have carried a four-year guarantee. The company claimed, in its catalogue, that two of its models (namely the "Smoke" and the "Raceway") had maximum speeds approaching 240 mph. One Argonaut is known to have come into private hands.

 

SWI quoted: Luntz also stated that 3 Argonaut prototypes were built, but all research since has only verified one surviving example: a 392 cubic inch Chrysler marine V-8 engine and 3-speed manual overdrive transmission mounted in a custom-built rolling chassis, but without any body. This is the chassis that was publicly displayed and pictured in newspaper accounts of the period, and was listed (with photo) in an auction catalog from the late 1970s, then owned by a private New York State collector.

The Blackhawk Museum in Danville CA featured a complete Argonaut automobile from 1988 up to about 1997, but this vehicle's appearance bears only a vague resemblance to the Argonaut Raceaway. Rather, its beautifully-finished boattail speedster body is more akin to a low-slung mid-1930s Duesenberg. This speedster may have been built on the 'show' chassis; Blackhawk literature makes reference to a '240-MPH speedometer' and a chassis that is a 'formidable feat of engineering'. As of 2005, the Blackhawk Museum was unaware of this car's whereabouts.

Jimi responds: WOW, SWI! Just TOTALLY WOW!!! Sounds as if this "modern classic" almost flew below our radar on this rare / extinct thread. I think EVERYBODY would love to SEE the survivor pic or pix!!!

 

One of my editions of Automobile Year has that same image and possibly 1 line more info. It's classic automotive vapourware though. The prototype is highly unlikely to be running any kind of exotic motor, and the claims made about this car are extremely optimistic, in my view - basically a thumbsuck and tot or two of tequila

 

Interesting expression, "a thumbsuck, etc . . . "

If it exists, I STILL want to see actual photo(s). And, no, I wouldn't call a 392 Chrysler Firepower exotic. Extreme would be more like it.

 

If it was in the blackhawk museum, all those years.
Somewhere there must be pictures.

But I'm guessing, there was only the one prototype until proven otherwise.
As for all the "exotic" claims, I think more BS than anything else.........unless they tried it and it failed miserably..........and never made it out the door.

 

I agree, SWI, with your rule-of-thumb. ONLY ONE complete car WAS actually on display at a reputable museum. So, one's believable (qualifies for the virtually extinct list on this thread! LOL), and any others are just plain in doubt -- UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.

Beyond that, we are left to speculate; and that's fine, provided so noted. My WAG is that Luntz's pockets were not as deep as the SoCal guy who made the Italian-bodied Stutz cars in the '60s and '70s. It also sounded as if Luntz's monied backers resisted having bodywork done in Italy (which would only show THEY were NOT car people!). I also tend to believe Luntz really wanted to build some 6 or 7 body styles on two different chasses. In my book, he'd done enough advance work (and gotten a least one patent) to show that he was serious and not just painting himself into a corner for public ridicule, as so many car dreamers have done.

Anyway, without sufficient capital and support, you're left in the same boat as dreamer Preston Tucker -- up Shit Creek without a paddle! LOL

 

Oh! And yeah! If the Argonaut was displayed in the Blackhawk Museum for a decade, maybe SOMEbody in HAMBland remembers visiting there and taking a pic or pix! HELP!!!

 

Thanks to the Museum of Automobile Art and Design
(MOAAAL) of Syracuse, NY, source of this Popular
Science illustration, we know what Luntz's limousine
might have looked like, if built. It was intended as a 21-
foot-long, eight-passenger on a wheelbase exceeding
130 inches. Other models were projected as two sedans,
a coupe, a convertible and two sports cars. Luntz's early
plan for an air-cooled aluminum V-12 obviously were
abandoned, and the 392 Hemi was allegedly put into the
one finished prototype. But how Luntz was going to coax
a promised 458-CID out of the Firepower for production
models -- when Chrysler drew the line at 392 max -- I
cannot fathom!

 

In November '07, HAMBer GaryC posted this image of an
"Argonaut." It may be PhotoShop, but it beats the crap out of
the fuzzy images we do HAVE!!! Imagine that, I looked all over
the 'net, and there was at least a COLOR rendition right here on
the HAMB!!! If nothing else, we now know that TV designers
developed the BatMobile after studying Rust Heinz's Phantom
Corsair and Luntz's abortive Argonaut!

 

This 1904 Thomas Model 27 Racer was offerred on eBay in April, 2008.

 

Mike, I take it the Thomas didn't sell. EBay has been slow on early cars for some time. Did they have a BIN on that early Thomas??? Can't get much earlier, since the first true Thomas' were '02 models!

I know you -- and especially SWI ! -- are fond of this make, which had faded undeservedly by the end of WWI and was forgotten by most folks, almost entirely. That is, EXCEPT that Thomas earned a permanent place in auto history by winning the 1908 "Great Race" New Yor to Paris!

It is rumored that a FEW Thomas' may have been made in 1919. ANYBODY know of one??? (Obviously, the very EARLY models and the very LATE would be pretty scarce, you know?)

 

Speaking of eBay, I understand Steve McQueen's '53 Siata roadster is up for a BIN of $1.3 M !!! I'm gonna break my piggy bank!

 

1904 Thomas Model 27 Racer - No Sale at $455,600<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

Mike, I think one of the fascinating things about pre-WWI cars is that they don't conform to MODERN standards of construction and size! And Thomas is a heck of an example, too! I doubt there were many hills most Thomas models couldn't climb.

Case in point: In 1910 alone, Thomas offered six-bangers of 468-CID 784-CID -- as well as their gas-miser four, at 571-CID !!! Wowee! Have times changed, or what?


And check out the NEAT 1912 ad for Thomas, thanks to the fab site, American-Cars.com!

 

<SLIDETITLE>

1904 Thomas Model 27 racer
</SLIDETITLE><SLIDEDESC>Company: Kruse
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Date: January 24, 2008
Sold at: $1,188,000

Fitted with an amazing amount of brass and all is nearly perfect. Painted wood wheels, white period tires. Detailing is immaculate throughout. No shocks fitted, engine compartment and interior spotless.
There was some speculation surrounding the race history of this car, and despite its excellent condition throughout, the price paid was a lot to spend for a car with stories. Undoubtedly rare, but well sold.
</SLIDEDESC>

 

Not a U.S. make, but one all HAMBers would pause to look at! This is being splashed all over the auto world and is apparently the ebay news of the day: Steve McQueen's '53 Fiat 208-S Spyder at a cool BIN of $1.3-M. Though just a 2-L mill, tricked out it reportedly delivered around 125-hp to the rear wheels. Did "Mister COOL" know how to pic 'em, or what??? I'm betting somebody BUYS it, even though old cars have been a drag on eBay (LOTS of no-sales) during this Second Great Recession.




Steve in one of his faves: the '57 XKSS Jag

 

Listen to a Jordan


<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=738><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top background=/images/crawford/bg_content.gif width=546>1929 Jordan
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width=333><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>

Listen to the 1929 Jordan​

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Hey, we're ALL into hi-perf cars, and Thomas was
one of THE earliest to sell the combo of SPEED and
PIZZAZZ !!! Thanks to Hemmings, via OldTimerGal-
lery.org, here's a keen '07 Speedster 4/40 ! Whoa!
Even in 1907, the guy who could afford this would
have hung out like a tall hog at the trough, eh?

Folks, the WERE factory hotrods, even before the
term was ever coined!

 

Hoo-baby! When nearly ALL car advertising was full
of line drawings and mechanical details -- ad nauseam --
Ned Jordan knew that people want steak. But the best
way to sell steak is to sell the sizzle! Jordan (the ad
writer AND his car) appealed to people's imaginations,
aspirations and self-image with color, style and fine
appointments. NOT too damn bad for an "assembled"
car, eh? Nice pic, HJ !!!


<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width=333 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Listen to a Mercer.


<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=738><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top background=/images/crawford/bg_content.gif width=546>1920 Mercer
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width=333><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>

Listen to the engine​

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

Listen to the horn​

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

1910 Thomas 6-70 Flyabout at the 2005 Meadowbrook
Concours de Elegance, thanks to www.RemarkableCars.Com
and photo pro Douglas Wilkinson who has long done most all
photography for them, all over the country. Great job, Mr.
Wilkinson, and THANKS again to RemarkableCars for these
informative images for this discussion board!




Note: RemarkableCars material is copyrighted, however, they have a very
reasonable use policy, basically just requiring that you include a credit link
back to THEM when passing any images or info on to friends. (Of course,
formal publishing, as I understand, would require express permission from
ReMarkableCars.) Sounds fair and generous to ME in this information age!
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=tdbackground vAlign=top align=middle></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Yes, you bet I am interested in the Thomas.
And was around for the 100th anniversary celebration of he Great Race of 1908 and heard George Schuster's great grandson do the "first person" narration of Shuster's story. We were out at the Thomas Plant, (now Rich products) and he pointed out the steep road next to the plant the car had to climb in high gear without stalling, and the distance on Niagara St. where the car had to reach 60 mph, otherwise, it could not be sold. Schuster was a trouble shooter for the E.R. Thomas company, and that's why he went along for the round the world race. And trouble shoot and repair he did.
How many of you out there would be confident enough to drive your car around the world?
Your modern car!
Now let me qualify that.........only using roads through cities and villages, the rest of the way, cross country. And in the dead of winter, finding ways to get pulled through the deepest snow with no plows. Through mud that a dozer would have trouble getting through.
And through the dead of winter with no windshield, heater, or anti freeze.

Back then, these cars were huge, and would dwarf a model T.

As for why the car on e-bay didn't sell.

James Sandoro curator of the Buffalo transportation Museum told us the story of how 30 years ago, he had the opportunity to buy this large building near the current museum for $40,000 but he bought a Thomas Flyer for $40,000 instead. Today, he could still buy that same building for $40,000 but the Thomas in the museum is appraised at over a million dollars.

The Thomas racer?
how many of those do you think survived?????

The expense of running in the race in 1908 was one of the reasons E.R. Thomas company went bankrupt.
The expense ws immense...........

 

Mike, I may not have read the fine print, but I was unsure if it was even the same car, since I don't think it was speciaifcally said in the material presented on #3261 of later.

Whatever, you are surely right. The guy shouldn't let it go at half the value. BUT, eBay isn't the place to get top dollar on a rare car most of the tme -- especially nowadays. EBay is generally for quick, reasonable sales (& it's easy to set your reserve, etc.); REAL auctions are the bang-up place to be (well advertised) to get the best price.

 

The car in question is a beautiful piece, no doubt.
And I would love to own a brass era car of any type, but a Thomas!
But how practical is it?
Not driveable, not really, especially a racer.
and unless you have bottomless pockets, youcannot afford it.

and let's face it.
Most people who were interested in these cars are now long gone.
There is a handful of hobbyists, like us, who embrace the history of the automobile and would love to own a piece of that history.

 

This picture appeared in the May June 2010 HCCA Horseless Carriage Gazette.

HCCA stands for Horseless Carriage Club Of America

It is a 1936 photograph of a 1 cyl. 1905 Reo Model B runabout taken in Spokane Washington (courtesy of Dan Sharp).

The Murphy-bodied Duesenberg convertible coupe ( J370 ) was then owned by by Dr. Frank B.
Robinson of Moscow, Idaho. According to Randy Ema, the car ended up in Los Angeles where it was restyled for Mae West. It is currently in the San Francisco Bay Area.

 

Wowee, Jimmy, that '05 was only the second year of the REO company!