History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

You are correct.

These are Chev































http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/history/holden.htm



http://www.rgvoldcars.com/images/trivia/MarchTrivia05.jpg


and, to make up for the error, a (rare, but not extinct) Holden bodied Willys Van



http://willysdownunder.webatu.com/39.Panel.html

 

Gabriel Voisin, thanks to Kit Foster. He's looking for a PHOTO
of Voisin's STRAIGHT-12 engine of 1934. Voisin only built two
prototypes, one a coupe for himself. The STRAIGHT-12 was
achieved by putting two sixes in tandem. Anybody know of
anything, photo-wise, we can send on to Kit?

 

This from a magazine "how-to" article (or based on it)- don't remember which one, though.

 

I don't know if this is it (apparently it's not).........but here's something from:

http://forums.aaca.org/f134/straight-12-a-160459-5.html

 

I believe that is Packard's straight 12. That car may be pictured in this thread somewhere.

Voisin made some really crazy cars in the 20s and 30s.

 

That Ariel looks to be made from a Citroen or or a Peugeot.

 

How could I have missed this? (Sorry jimi'shemi291, I'd sort of lost track of this thread ) I've been looking for info on the Montier Model As for ages!

What I've found hitherto:

Though numbered differently, these are clearly the same cars as in HJmaniac's photograph. They are definitely not the twin-engined design of 1933, though the long hood is suggestive. That rather results from the lowered chassis: see the odd-shaped Z just aft of the steering pitman arm. To make that work the radiator was moved forward, hence the long hood. Note the length of the frame horns.

Also, though the photo appears to date from 1930 the cars seem to use '29 parts. The cowl looks like it was based on a '29 A cowl, though there is now a fuel tank behind the seats. I could not see in this photograph if the grille shell behind the stone guard was a '28/'29 or a '30/'31 type. In HJm's photo it looks more like the earlier type.


I came across this ad. It was this which first aroused my interest in Montier. It echoed my own ideas around a full-fendered A on a Z'd frame. Again visible is the forward-shifted radiator, but the rest seems based on '30/'31 parts. In side aspect the proportions are quite rakish, though I suspect that the radiator position would have made for an ugly car in front three-quarter view.

Despite my efforts to find evidence to the contrary I strongly suspect that the Montier A might really be extinct.

 

The rad shells appear to be 28-29, 30-31 are taller and a little thicker IIRC.

 

Another photo. The two cars in the back row appear to be Montier As.

 

Here are the infos I got on the Voisin V12 (weird name for inline engine) in a book by Rene Bellu:
introduced in late '35 with no commercial name since it was a prototype and personnal car for Gabriel the 27CV Prototype had 2 13CV valveless 6's coupled, 4 Zenith carbs for a size of 4 654CC (67X110mm) for an output of 140HP mated to a Cotal 4 speed, top speed of 160KPH.
The other one a 6 seater 2dr sedan : the V12 L Ailee sold new in february 1936 to a good customer and friend of his in the Lyon region for 120 000 Francs (almost 10X the cheapest Peugeot of the time) once again the engine is 2 valvaless 6's coupled together but they are the 17CV ones, the size was 5 988CC (76X110mm) with an output of 180HP and a top speed of 180 KPH.
Now pictures



The long wheelbase appears in the price list and brochure but apparently was never produced.

 

Wow, Chrisp! I asked what I thought was a virtual impossibility, and -- sure enough! -- a fellow HAMBer comes up with a pic even Kit Foster has had trouble with. I think Kit had the facts, just no photo. Do you mind if if I send this to him, complements of YOU and the HAMB?

I'm seeing some things that baffle me on this strange Voisin! Like that chain-drive unit off the main pulley. Something to di with how this engine could work without valves? Makes me want to see the left side and the internal workings. Anything more in that rare book you have??? THANKS for this post!

 

Wrench & AJ, amazing to just LOOK at. The keen exchange from AACA is equally cool from an informational standpoint. Unless my old eyes are fooling me (again!), it appears that Packard's early-'20s experiment may have been from one block casting, unlike the Voisin.

Anyway the engineering devil seemed to be in the CRANK performance details (for Voisin, too?) as well as accessibility of various parts to routine service. Makes sense. To be practical, it would have to have been a very low-revving engine, right? Packard engineers were not dumb; they obviously worked hard enough on the concept to show it could not be done sufficiently to make for a feasible (reliable) and economically viable product to mass produce. My short take; comments welcome.

 

GEEZ what a monster! Maybe Jim Dillon has some info?

 

Jimi, it was Knight who invented it in 1903, it was found in the US on the Silent Knight, Willys Knight and Stearn Knight. In Europe where this type of engine was first used under license they were found on luxo barge like the Voisin and Panhard (since 1910) Minerva and Daimler Benz, then radial plane engines (Bristol), it works with 2 sets of sleeves with windows in them, those sleeve go up and down allowing mixture to go in and burned gaz to go out. The problem is that they need very tight tolerances (Panhard engine even had no head gasket), they are low revving and they burn a lot of oil, on the plus side they are very quiet, and have less vibrations.

 

NOW I finally know what was so special about the Knight sleeve-valve engines AND why so many companies wanted to buy them, as is, for their autos! It's been a day do education! I always say that auto mechanics and auto history are very much like fishing: You NEVER know ALL there is to know! Thanks, Chrisp!

And, Mac, yeah, I wonder what it WEIGHED! And I'll bet you're right. Jim Dillon is probably THE Packardfile on the HAMB. He'd be the one to speak about the pros AND cons of the straight-12 experimental. I like the fact that he's a straight-talker, too. He loved the V-12, but he will tell you plainly that -- as well-engineered as it was -- by 1940 cost-impacted demand drain pretty much made it a dinosaur, economically speaking. So, I imagine his comments on the straight 12 would be pretty terse, as well. I'll send him the Packard pic today, if I can get to it.

 

Ray (ChevyAsylum), THANKS for locating this Trumbull cyclecar and posting the photo! I think it is only the SECOND extant example posted on this thread, making Trumbull one of the ultra-rare autos -- especially in the U.S.! (The other was also a roadster, posted by HYManiac last July.)

The Trumbull is especially interesting to ME from SEVERAL standpoints. Priced in the $400 to $600 range, seems it would have given Henry Ford fair competition, especially considering that it seems to have been rather well made. (The styling, BTW, reminds me of the Dile, which also competed with the Ford T.) The side-valve four, designed by Hermann Engineering Co., cranked up to 18 hp, not bad for a light cyclecar touted as America's smallest, what with its 80-inch wheelbase! Top speed was claimed at 50-mph.

Then, there are at least two back stories on Trumbull -- and I ALWAYS find these fascinating! These cars were actually designed in 1912 in Detroit by Harry Stoops and were to be sold as the American automobile. "American" turned out to be EXTINCT before the first one rolled off the assembly line at the American plant in Bridgeport, CT, folks (not the first to suffer that fate!). The Trumbull brothers, Alexander and Isaac, bought the American operation lock, stock and barrel and started selling them as Trumbulls in 1913.

It is estimated that three-quarters of Trumbull production was exported to Europe and Australia. Not a high-volume company, Trumbull built only about 2,000 cars in Bridgeport before the effects of World War I led to shuttering the plant for good in 1915. THEREIN is the saddest back story of all!

Isaac Trumbull was, in fact, a passenger on the Lusitania in 1915, headed for Europe with 20 Trumbull autos aboard, when a German U-boat torpedoed the civilian ship. As terrible as the sinking was in human and political terms, the Trumbull business had lost half its leadership team and the value of the 20 cars that went to the bottom of the Atlantic. Making matters even worse, Isaac Trumbull had been on his way to finalize a deal for fully 300 Trumbull cars in Europe! Fini.




1915 Trumbull two-passenger roadster at museum on the Hood River, Oregon, shot
by and thanks to ChevyAsylum!



'14 Trumbull two-passenger sedan, THANKS to American-Automobiles.com!
In three years of actual production, the Trumbull brothers produced only
about 2,000 of these sturdy, low-price cyclecars.



Trumbull ad from 1915, also THANKS
to American-Cars.com! Check what
you got for the price!

 

The Trumbull is a very cool looking car, could also easily be mistaken with a T.
For the Ford Montier it's hard to come by infos on the A's, he is "very" known for his T's though, especially his OHV conversions, he was also selling dropped beams for them too, funny thing is that hot rodding was not known at all, it was introduced in France in the early 50's by the french edition of popular machanics but nobody knows of any real hot rod in France before the early 80's. And it's only during the last 10/15 years that it's really taking off. Before that modifications were made to race a car or to keep it going.
Back to Montier:









The Montier OHV conversion on a T

This T was found and restored in Paraguay by a Mr Orlando Rauddi, the engine above is the real deal, but nobody's apparently sure that the body is Montier.


Montier's adventure was brought to a brutal halt by Ford SAF in 1934 when they decided to stop doing business with him

 

Re Voisin V12....

The Bucciali TAV12 (Traction AVante = front wheel drive)..



http://www.worldcarfans.com/community/photo/oGm7fClfe

Georges Roure ordered a Bucciali at the 1930 Paris Motor show. Originally it was to be fitted with a V16 engine. Because of time delays, Roure opted for a 12 cylinder Voisin. The car was delivered with the Voisin sleeve valve V12 cylinder fitted.

Read more:
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z13389/Bucciali-TAV-12.aspx

and here:
http://www.kidston.com/pdfs/116.pdf (takes a while to load)

Question: Is this Voisin engine the same or different to the Voisin straight12 that is referred to as the "Voisin V12 straight 12 cylinder engine"?

 

My Eye's, my Eye's...my heart! thats a deuce!!! Are you kidding me....to each his own but this is testing that theory.

 

i know its not extinct but a cool very rare ride is the American Underslung. my neighbor had one of i think he said 8 left in existance.(he may have exagerated that) he just recently sold it... his was in pieces. i know they were produced from 1905-14 in indianapolis.

 

Not a member of the AACA but I can say that there are about 40 known cars in the world. Not all are complete and running but they are around. My uncle has a 1924 sedan. He is the second owner and ownership has never left Freeport Illinois. He has owned it since 1959 or so. Currently there are 6 back in Freeport and the remainder scattered all over the world. It will be summer before I can get pictures.

As for the Henney connection: The Stephens Motor car was built in the old Henney Buggy Company building. The employees of Henney stayed on when it was sold to Moline Plow Company. By 1924 Willys had a controlling interest in the Moline Plow Company, and for lack of better words, Forced the Stephens Motor Car out of business. When this occured John Henney purchased the building back from Moline Plow and started producing the Henney Hearse. it appears that the early Henney Hearse used the last of the Stephens components. An interesting side note is that the 1930-31 area Henney shared fenders with Duesenburgs. Henney also produced the Presidential fleet of cars for Harry Truman. In 1954 they closed their doors for the last time. Currently Honeywell is the owner and occupant of the building.

 

I do not believe that the V12 in the Bucciali is a straight 12. There is at least one other Voisin with a 12 cylinder engine and it's not straight.

 

Underslungs are really cool!

I have to ask, what is the definition of "Extinct" here? I keep seeing photos of companies that still exist being called extinct, and the I see a photo of a company that stopped making cars 90 years ago, and it gets call not extinct... in my mind Extinct means the company is either dead and gone, or they don't make cars anymore, can someone enlighten me?

 

I agree, Underslungs are keen, and I don't know why more companies didn't follow the lead, except maybe the road conditions of the time.

 

LN7, I think your question is appropriate and timely. We tried to get the thread re-named to include very rare cars -- not just extinct. If you go back to Post #1, you'll see that we did try to revise the theme of the thread; UNFORTUNATLEY, this did not carry over to current posts (the way the support program works, I was told) ..... so the confusion is understandable. Post #1 now states: Extinct, Near-Extinct & Very Rare U.S. Makes & Models. I will do a more detailed explanation and remember to keep it handy when the matter comes up, AS it will, I'm sure!

 

Above photo - 1931 Voisin C20 V-12 Mylord Demi-Berline - the vehicle "formerly the Property of D. Cameron Peck and Dr. Gerald Rolph"?




So, the Voisin 12cylinder motor installed in the original Bucciali would have looked like this -

?

http://www.velocetoday.com/archives/9063



...........................................


This is a photograph of the 1930 record setting Voisin fitted with a Voisin 12 cylinder. -




http://www.automobilesvoisin.com/drupal/blog

From the blog, re the Voisin above:
"The 17 Days of Montlhéry
Posted by Frans on Apr 24, 2010
special thanks to Frans Kamps
Exclusive dealership of Avions Voisin in the Netherlands was held by a company ‘Cobor’, residing on Prinsengracht 542, Amsterdam. ....................
The director of Cobor NV: Willem Borre van Doorninck, was incidentally one of the 4 pilots to drive the famous 12 Cyl., 5 liter Voisin to her endurance race glory of 50.000 kilometers on the Piste of Montlhéry in 1930. One trip around the world plus an extra 10.000 or so. The four men did it in 17 days, clocking an average speed of 120 kmph. One-hour distance record was set at 206 km."


So, Voisin built two different 12 cylinder motors, a straight 12 (2 x 6cylinder motors joined lengthwise) and a V12 motor.

 

A Trumbull at a Veteran Car Rally in Perth, Western Australia earlier this year:



http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com/2011/02/perth-veteran-car-rally-2011.html

 

I guess that all the Euro and Aussie cars we see in the posts are off topic...

 

Thanks Jimi, I appreciate the info. now would this also include coachbuilt cars where there was only a few made and less survive?

But they were so cool, and a lot of them were available in North America...

 

US Makes and Models only? I sure hope not. I've sure enjoyed the discussion of the Voisins (I've been of the opinion for a long time that M. Voisin was certifiably insane) and Bucciali and the Aussie Utes.

Just a side note. In a tragic parallel, Isaac Trumbull and Washington Roebling II were both lost at sea, Trumbull with the Lusitania and Roebling with the Titanic. With Roebling's death, the Mercer Automobile Company began its final downward spiral and eventual demise...after the corporate receiver (Emlem Hare) attempted expansion by acquiring Locomobile and Crane-Simplex. Durant Motors then purchased the whole thing and closed the doors in 1925.