History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

This advertising card for a Garford appears to suggest that the apparatus is used as it mentions that the tires are good and that the truck could be adapted to a variety of uses. One wonders if the G.F.D. on hood indicates the truck was destined for a department that refused delivery, upgraded to a larger truck or if it stood for "Garford F.D. " on the hood of a demonstrator unit. The Boston Garford and Willys dealer was the R&L Co. located at 915 Boylston Street, Boston.

http://www.spaamfaa.com/collectingpostcards.html

 

Well Jimi; Looks like you can get your very own copy here and it's a newer version up to 1996.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/188052421X/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Since you asked, the other lists in the book are;

Vehicles Miles Of Travel from 1925 up.

Special Motor Vehicle Taxes from 1925 and up.

Highway Expenditures from 1925 and up.

Motor Vehicle Factory Sales, U.S. Plants from 1900 and up.

 

Thanks, Jim.

The Marion list comprises only the major, later Marion make. I point this out ONLY because of the theme of the thread.

In fact, MARION was the name of four distinct marques, some related, some totally on their own. (Marions actually spawned two or three OTHER obscure makes, as well.) Holy!

What that means is that the more "common" Marion only has eight surviving representatives. Whoa! That's a significant RARE make, right? But it ALSO means that the OTHERS may well be EXTINCT or in the ULTRA-RARE catagory.

I'd add that we've touched on the problem of very, very DIFFERENT makes sharing the same name (DAVIS is a hell of an example! LOL). This can really complicate trying to get your arms around what's NON-EXISTENT, ULTRA-RARE, or basically RARE.

Part of the FUN of this thread! BUT, it surely can give you a headache when you're trying to sort the marques out, eh?!?!?

 

When I picture an MG in my mind, I sure don't picture one like this but I will now!

1937 MG SA Drop Head Coupe

Morris QPHG 2.3 litre inline six-cylinder engine, four- speed manual transmission, Salmons coachwork, hydraulically operated Lockheed four-wheel drum brakes, bean front and live rear axle suspension; wheelbase: 123”

On occasion, the MG marque supplied a bare chassis to outside coachbuilders such as Salmons, Charlesworth, or James Young to receive a custom body. Charlesworth was known for their work on Alvis and Rolls-Royces and Salmons for smaller open British cars known as the ‘Tickford’ style.

The MG SA was the largest ever designed and made its debut in 1936, initially as a saloon. It was equipped with a Morris-sourced 2.3 liter six-cylinder engine. Within a short period of time, the SA model was offered with coachwork by Charlesworth as an open tourer, and by Salmons as a Tickford three-position drop head. In total, there were 2,738 examples of the SA models produced. The MG SA was produced from 1936 through 1939. It was originally known as the 2-liter, but its name was later changed to the SA. The SA was intended to be a sporty model, capable of rivaling other sports cars from marques such as Bentley.

A prototype car was designed in 1935. The merger between MG and Morris Motors in the same year had development coming to a halt, before a production version was realized. The project resumed a short while later, but the design was not the same. It had become more conservative and practical. Under the hood was a Morris QPHG six-cylinder engine that displaced 2062cc. The engine was given special tuning which resulted in an increase in displacement to 2322cc. There was a four-speed manual gearbox with synchromesh on the top two ratios. The front was suspended in place by a beam front axle and a conventional live axle. Hydraulically operated Lockheed drum brakes were used to keep the car in the driver's control. Wire wheels could be found on all four corners. This was an extraordinary mechanical setup for the day and MGs equipped with the QPHG engine are some of the most sought after MGs anywhere.

From the early 1920s to the beginning World War II, the automobile began a transformation as dramatic as that of a caterpillar to a butterfly. Inexpensive cars like the Model T Ford, with its boxlike bodywork, were being turned out by the hundreds of thousands. In fact, it was mass production that helped pave the way for coach building's golden age. People of wealth and position needed automobiles that complemented their lavish lifestyles. For them, the "T-square" and its automotive counterparts gave way to the type of flowing lines found on Ettore Bugatti's creations for example. Many coach builders were out there but only a few had their name stamped in history. Salmons would be one who was known for beautiful Tickford three-position drop head coupes and as a British coach builder, they were one of the finest.

When the MG SA car made its debut, it was available with only a few options, such as a Philco radio and alternate body styles. The optional body was a saloon configuration and made by Morris. It had four doors and traditional MG styling consisting of large chrome plated headlights and traditional grille. There was seating for four with the rear being a bench and the front being individual seats. The trim was made mostly from walnut. The spare tire was carried on the vehicle’s boot. As the years progressed, additional options and body styles were added. A Tickford drop head coupe body appeared in 1936, which had coachwork by Salmons.

This nicely restored example was originally bodied as a factory-built, four-door saloon. It now wears a Tickford-style body that was installed during a frame-off restoration performed in 1990 by MG specialists. It is finished in two shades of cream with a matching leather interior. There are wooden door caps, dash, and gold-faced instruments. The exterior is very tidy…that is a well kept older restored car. The paint and trim show minimal signs of wear, and overall the car is a remarkably attractive automobile. Likewise, the interior and bonnet show minimal wear and are clearly up to any sort of touring this car’s new owner might wish to participate in. Having travelled only 110 miles since restoration, one might think they are getting into a new car but to the delight of anyone who purchases this car, it is sorted and has the road manners of a seasoned and well-schooled example ready for a country drive on a sunny Sunday afternoon.

More pics;

https://www.wwgauctions.com/auctions/details.cfm?vehicleID=78&id=33

 

Wow, SunRoof! And I thought the Pierce-Arrow hood ornament was
artful and busy! I rode in an MG TC, and they were FUN cars!

 

Marion



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_(automobile)


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Marion-Handley (The Mutual Motors Company - J I Handley (Pres.))



http://www.flickr.com/photos/charmainezoe/sets/72157625702822911/detail/



1916 Marion-Handley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion-Handley

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Marion Flyer











An advertised E-bay item-

See:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-Marion-Flyer-Sales-Catalog-/350352863338

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There are numerous "one of" and non factory bodied MG's in Australia. This is partly due to the fact it was cheaper to import without a body and then have a body supplied by a local company/firm. In the case of MG's, the body may be an Aspinall, a Martin and Kent or .................

This site has a very good photograph and detail section and some very rare vehicles (some of which may well be extinct):

http://prewar.mgcc.info/Archives/archives%201.htm

Just one from the site to whet the appetite:



"Sitting in a Sydney back street in the early '70's is Robert Clarke's K1 Magnette chassis 0420. This one and sister car 0421 were imported bodyless by Lanes Motors of Melbourne in 1934. 0420 recieved this rare coupe body possibly by Martin and King .................................... "

 

Quiz for today:

In what year did George H Morill Jr. of Norwood, Massachusetts buy one of the 13 Duryea Motor Wagons, and thus became the first known purchaser of an American Gasoline car?

 

Only 1651 Woody's were built by Buick in 1952.

 

Henry Wells had the first recorded accident with one in 1896 by hitting a cyclist... but I could not find the year of the first purchase.

 

Menominee truck.

 

57 Meteor ragtop. N - I - C - E........Can't be too many of these left......

 

1896 - Morrill bought the first production Duryea, drove it around and pranged it.

http://www.massmoments.org/forum_topicview.cfm?frmtopicID=366

 

The first "car" accident ever recorded in the world would be Cugnot's who forgot to invent the brake along with his steam car. In 1770 he went right through a wall in the city of Vanves.

 

You gotta love all those CMPs Parked in the back Canadian Military Pattern (CMP) truck

 

Good Answers to yesterday's Quiz. The correct answer was 1896 but I see that question brought up some other interesting topics like the first automobile accident.

Thursday's Quiz is; What U.S. President was the first to ride in in an automobile and what year was it?

 

1962-1972 Acadian

A separate line of GM compact and mid size cars rebadged especially for the Canadian market, Acadians were Chevy IIs and Chevelles given names like Invader, Beaumont and Canso. No real differences in product other than the name change. It’s kind of like how they call a restroom a “washroom,” or a Mazda a “MAZZda.”

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/07/celebrate-canada-day-with-quirky-canadian-cars/

Interesting that they did not mention the different trim. There are definitely differences between the Canadian and U.S. version of this car.

 

The first US president to ride in an automobile was not Theodore Roosevelt as many people suggest, but it was William McKinley in 1901. An electric ambulance transported him after he was shot by a deranged anarchist. Eight days later, he died and his vice president Theodore Roosevelt became the president. Roosevelt was the first to ride in a car, but not the first to ride in an automobile.

Although William McKinley and Theodore Roosevelt had ridden in automobiles, it was not until William H. Taft became Chief Executive in 1909 that the White House officially changed from horses to cars and began to supply official vehicles for use by the President. Using a $12,000 appropriation, the first White House chauffeur was given the job of identifying the most appropriate cars. Seeking the best deals, he purchased one White Steamer, two Pierce-Arrows, and a Baker Electric.

Warren Harding was the first President who knew how to drive a car before entering office and became the first President to ride to his inauguration in an automobile, which was a Packard Twin Six supplied by the Republican National Committee.

 

H..J. wins;

I don't know what he wins other then giving the rest of us more automotive history that we might not know.

My source says the year was 1900 but who am I to question 1901.

As Henry Ford says; History is Bunk

Don't know that I agree with that; How many know that the U.S. Declaration of Independence that we celebrate on July 4th was actually signed on July 2nd.

 

Weird, I've always seen those trucks as Ford Canada with flathead V8. They were plenty of those in junkyard around the country up to about 15 years ago, not anymore.

 

IDENTIFYING CMP MODELS<!--mstheme-->
Data plates are the first thing to look for. One early models they are often on the engine cover inside the cab. On late models they are usually on top of the dash over the instruments on Chevrolets, and on the driver's door inside near the top on Fords.

If data plates are missing, Fords have year marked on 'back' of pintle hook. One can see it by climbing under the truck, and looking at the rear of the pintle hook. There is a circular hole in the mounting plates and one can usually see "FM Co 43" for example (as I recall, it is some years since I have looked). This example would be Ford Motor Company 1943.

Early models:
Cab 11 (1940 model) - Fixed windshield, no roof hatch, small hinged panel to access engine from outside. Suicide doors (hinged at back). Cramped cab. Headlights standing separate and on fenders (giving them the nickname "Monkey Face" down in southern regions of the world.
Cab 12 (1941 model)- The Cab 12 is basically the same as Cab 11 but had minor modifications done in response apparently to user feedback (aka complaints), especially from the North African desert. As per Cab 11 but windshield opens a few inches as a single unit, some models have a roof hatch. Large hooks on doors so they can be propped open about 6". "Alligator hood" - better engine access. Vents incorporated on each side of radiator grill to provide moving (not necessarily cooler!) air to the cab when driving.
Cab 13 (1942-1945 model)- Total design change. Much roomier. Reverse slope windshield, doors hinged at front, headlights buried inside cowl. Some later models (1944-5) had round roof 'hatch' of canvas for observer. Early models of Chevs had "cluster" instruments and later models had separate round instruments.

8 Cwt (1/2 ton) - Tires 9.00x13 or 9.25x16 on HU 4x4 models. 101" WB. No step under door to get into cab.
15 Cwt (3/4 ton) - Tires 9.00x16. 101" wheelbase.
30 Cwt - 10.50x16 tires. 134" WB
60 Cwt (3 ton) - 10.50x20 tires. 134" or 158" WB

"Z" was letter code at beginning of DND or WD number painted on the door. This was for trucks 8 Cwt or 15 Cwt. "L" was for Lorry which was the category for 3 Ton (60 Cwt). There are many other letter prefix codes but those are the most common.

From: http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/cmp_canadian_military_pattern.htm

 

March 1921. President-Elect Harding sits with outgoing President Woodrow Wilson in the Packard.

It MAY have been that Wilson's poor health could have helped promulgate the break from carriage tradition! In point of fact, Coolidge, the next president in line, rode the TRAD way in a horsedrawn carriage to his inauguration; he RETURNED from the Capital inauguration in an AUTOMOBILE, though. Silent Cal liked cars!

 

Newly Inaugurated president Coolidge returning from the U.S. Capitol, March 4, 1925.
(Per still-prevailing custom, he had ridden to the inauguration in a horse-drawn carriage.)
Heeeeyyyy! What are those two cars out front???

 

Inauguration of President William Howard Taft, March 1909. Though Taft was the first
president to embrace the automobile, he rode in the traditional manner to and from
his inauguration. I wonder what make the automobile back there is?!?

 

Teddy Roosevelt was not afraid of automobiles at all, though he was a horseman.
Here he is making a campaign stop in Sioux Falls, SD, in a Fawick Flyer, one of
ONLY FIVE BUILT! Only ONE SURVIVES! Hey, we're back on topic! LOL!

 

1924 Pierce-Arrow 33 4 Passenger Phaeton

 

Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot, a French inventor, is credited with the world's first automobile accident in 1771, when he lost control of his steam-powered vehicle, which was traveling at 2 miles per hour, and crashed into a wall.

In 1891, James Lambert and James Swoveland sustained minor injuries after their car hit a tree root then struck a hitching post in Ohio City, Ohio. This was said to be the first accident involving a gasoline-powered vehicle.


​

 

The headlight always give away a Pierce, don't they, HJ???
THAT is actually a VERY nice model, too!

 

Last Friday in April Quiz; In 1902, what make became the first American gasoline car with a four cylinder water cooled front mounted engine?

 

1936 Pierce-Arrow 1602 Salon Twelve Convertible Coupe - 1 of 3

462 cid V12 rated at 185 horsepower, three-speed manual transmission with overdrive, front and rear semi-elliptic leaf springs with rear semi-floating rear axle and four-wheel vacuum assisted drum brakes; wheelbase: 139”

The Three Ps of Motordom are recognized as American automotive royalty for much of early motorcar history. Exclusivity, performance, and price are just a few of the attributes that earned Packard, Peerless, and Pierce-Arrow this collective title. The three firms make for a remarkable management case study. Packard is well known for having managed the challenges of the Depression by incorporating mass production to claim sales in the lower-priced segments. Peerless’s management observed over-saturation in the field and exited to become the producer of Carling beer. Pierce-Arrow had the least successful strategy, swimming upmarket in the ultra-luxury field on the assumption that even in a depression the small group of wealthy elite could help them weather the storm. This direction prompted an expensive redesign of vital elements from the frame to the steering geometry to the the braking and lighting systems which were a boon to the driver but nearly invisible to the showroom buyer.

The example offered here, a 1936 Pierce-Arrow Salon Twelve Convertible Coupe Roadster, is just one of probably three with this body style and engine built in the period from 1936-1938 and one of only two believed to be in existence. The earliest history of this car is unknown until it was bought sometime in late 1956 or early 1957 by Dr. Jack T. Combs, a collector well known in Pierce-Arrow circles. He acquired chassis 3130076 in Wheeling, West Virginia, and drove it to Washington, D.C. At that time it had been painted white over its original color of dark blue. In the summer of 1957, Combs sold his Pierce to Lester Kraft of Washington for a 1949 Chevrolet plus $750 in cash. After more than a decade of sad neglect, a collector in Woodbridge, Virginia, named Harold Gates rescued the car from Kraft and commissioned its first body-off restoration which took place between 1970 and 1972. It was sold in early 1992 to Paul Gibson of Front Royal, Virginia, and in early 1998 it was sold by the trustee of his estate to Vintage Motors in Sarasota, Florida, who delivered it to the current owner residing in the Pierce-Arrow birthplace of Buffalo, New York.

It is interesting to consider that in the period after WWII the automobiles now considered Grand Classics were simply big, outdated, impractical cars, hardly worth a fraction of even their depression prices. The current owner of chassis 3130076 lived through that era, having had as his first car a 1934 Pierce-Arrow Sedan which was purchased for the princely sum of $350 followed by two Duesenbergs costing $550 and $1,200 respectively. His brother bought a Model A Ford touring car for $8.00 and sold a supercharged Duesenberg convertible to a chiropractor for 150 ten-dollar bills. Collectors of this era enjoyed sharing their cars with friends in car circles but the most enjoyment came from driving their magnificent old machines. As a member of that generation, the current owner wanted to ensure that his newly-acquired car would be up to the task.

During a mechanical inspection it was found that the early restorers had been able to obtain new Seagrave blocks and a crankcase along with the machinery they contained to replace the original 1930’s equipment. Interestingly, the Pierce-Arrow V12 was developed by a partnership of the two companies, with the engines produced by Pierce and the tooling owned by Seagrave. After the demise of Pierce-Arrow, Seagrave continued to produce the same engines for its own use. Despite having installed new equipment, the ancillary components operated poorly and the car was driven very little during the previous two decades. When received by the current owner in the early 1990s, the engine was virtually new and was reflected by high oil pressure readings over the first year.

At the time the engine was wearing a set of original cast-iron heads which yielded a compression ratio of 6:1 and 175 horsepower instead of 185. Fortunately, demand among collectors had led to the production of new aluminum heads which yield compression of 6.4:1. In late February of 1999, chassis 3130076 was shipped to Pierce-Arrow specialist Eric Rosenau in Ramona, California, who installed the new heads. The car remained in Mr. Rosenau’s charge through May 13 to correct a few problems experienced with the engine accessories. Items repaired and rebuilt include the starter, Startix switch, generator, distributor, dual carburetors, coils, water pump, fuel pump, fan, and thermostat. Later work by several shops nearer Buffalo extended to the replacement of the original exhaust system with four mufflers in series in stainless steel, as well as the rebuild of the braking system from the vacuum booster to the shoes and drums, new front springs, clutch overhaul, and rebuild of the windshield wiper motor and restoration of the radio. In between all these jobs the owner drove the car as much as the weather permitted.

Other work was carried out from January to May of 2002 and 2006 by Leo Moser of Buffalo, known for exceptionally high quality work. Mr. Moser’s work included a full rebuild of the top including framing and mechanism which had posed problems for the first restorers. The interior was reupholstered to the same degree of perfection using Connolly hides. Late in 2007, the owner finally decided to repaint the car. After the stripping commenced, it became clear that the entire car would have to come apart as 1970’s restoration standards did not dictate the same degree of consistency that they do today. M&S Auto Restorations in Bouckville, New York, removed the body from the chassis and delivered the latter to Paul Kron in Hilton, New York, who knew the car intimately and is an infinitely resourceful master of all the skills this kind of work requires. He also is the originator of an innovative solution to the presence of free-wheeling on Pierce transmissions, which is lethally dangerous under today’s driving conditions. Kron was able to replace the original transmission with a four-speed overdrive transmission used from 1979-1984 in small Ford trucks, making the swap so that it is reversible and virtually invisible to even the most knowledgeable of viewers. The gears are in constant mesh making double-clutching unnecessary and downshifts for engine braking are easily executed. The original transmission was also fully rebuilt and accompanies the car should its future owner desire the car to be returned to 100% authenticity.

The selected color scheme dates back to the owner’s youth. In the late 1940s, he spotted a Rolls-Royce Phantom II Henley Roadster for sale at the dealer R.E. Clarke in Boston. Struck by the rich two tone color scheme, best described as Café au lait and Royal Maroon, he never forgot it. The Connolly hides of the interior are a wonderful complement to the exterior colors, being only a shade lighter than the main exterior color. After 25 months, body and chassis were finally joined and delivered to Buffalo in January of 2010. When judged at the CCCA Grand Classic in Dearborn, Michigan, in July of 2010, the car won Best in Class with 97.5 points which brought it up to Senior status.

In addition to being exceptionally rare, chassis 3130076 is the more highly optioned of the two known examples. It has dual sidemounts with metal covers, rumble seat, auxiliary headlamps and a working radio, not to mention the performance-improving high-compression aluminum replacement heads. The advanced steering geometry, Michelin radial tires and modern transmission have resulted in an automobile with impeccable road manners which invites long-distance touring at highway speeds.

More pics;

http://www.wwgauctions.com/auctions/details.cfm?vehicleID=2&id=33