History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

When I found the "COX" hubcap there were a couple of other brand hubcaps with it in kind of a pile under a bush. Having never heard of a "COX" before, I grabbed it. I was trying to buy some property that went to probate court (auction). The old lady had gone to a rest home. That was back in the late 1990's. Wanted to ask her about it, but a neighbor said that she didn't leave willingly. Told her visitors they were "stealing" her land !(to pay for her care) Maybe I should have gone anyway...

 

C300, that COX hubxcaps and a photo of a Jordan "Little Custom" are two of the pesky items we haven't been able to track down yet on this thread. But, there are some guys here who like a challenge AND have resource literature. SO . . . if we bump questions back to the forefront once in a while, we just MAY ultimately find the answers.

I once had an ad for the Little Custom, and I lost it or let it get away. It had the artful ad prose of ned Jordan and the whole ad was obviusly aimed at women (presumably ones who didn't much care for handling a full-size car). The Jordan sedan was in the foreground on the full-page ad. In the background a woman wades in a languid country stream with her little boy and girl. The car flopped because the consumer would not pay twice the price of a Model A for a car only inches different fro the A -- even with lush appointments lacking in the Ford.

 

The 8/10 Cords are easy to tell from the Genuine Article but I see people believe the Auburn Replicas are the Genuine Article all the time. It is sad that the owners of these Replicas choose to represent them as the REAL thing. You are right though in saying that the knowledgable Auto Aficionado can't be fooled. But, neither should the non-educated.

 

Going back to the Packard Hawk Convertible for a moment, I saw my friend who owns the Packard Hawk in the pictures above and he says that Studebaker Packard never built a convertible, not even a prototye, so we have a mystery, WHO built the Packard Hawk Convertible??????

But, then again, Wikipedia says that the Hawk Convert was driven by the chief engineer as his personal car.

So, did Studebaker Packard actually build it or did the chief engineer have an out source do the Hawk Convert???? Seems unlikely to me that it wasn't in house if it was driven by a chief engineer.

 

RE #1091, SunRoof, yeah,I'm with you. Sounds like high execs at a NUMBER of companies had customied/custom-made cars to suit their fancy. Edsel Ford's personalized Zephyr became the basis for the production Continentals, hey. And we've seen some of the custom Packards just recently.

But -- GOSH! -- what a snappy convertible the Hawk made, eh???
So the Pack-Hawk 'vert sounds like an INSIDE job to me, too!

 

I just contacted the Crawford Auto-Aviation Museum about the aluminum components of the 1932 Peerless V-16 Prototype. Here is the info he sent me.

The engine block is aluminum with nickel-iron cylinder sleeves. The connecting rods are forged aluminum alloy with steel caps. The pistons are cast aluminum alloy. The cylinder heads, intake manifold, bell housing and transmission case are cast aluminum. The carburetor housings are aluminum. The front axle is an aluminum forging and the rear axle housing is an aluminum casting. The brake drums (with a thin steel liner), brake shoes and wheels are aluminum. A great reference about this car can be found in an issue of Automobile Quarterly entitled Forever Peerless by Stuart W. Wells I believe in 1999.
Allan

 

1910 Atlas Model H

'The Most Silent and Indestructible Engine Built'

<table border="0" cellspacing="5" width="440"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td></td></tr></tbody></table>The Atlas two-cycle, 60 horsepower engine gave the car a top speed of 60 miles per hour and sales literature stated, 'The perfect two-cycle Atlas engine is the simplest, most silent, and indestructible engine built.'

The Sunset Automobile Company of San Francisco originally developed, manufactured and marketed the car as the Sunset. The 1906 earthquake and fire destroyed the Sunset factory and production was taken over by the Knox Motor Truck Company in Springfield, Massachusetts. The car was renamed the Atlas and was built from 1907 to 1911. To prove the worthiness of the two-cycle engine, Henry Knox entered a stock Atlas in the 1909 Vanderbilt Cup race. It was the first time a two-cycle vehicle had ever been entered and the car finished a respectable fifth place.

This 1910 Atlas is the largest Atlas built. It has many unique features of the period including the use of nickel plating on its lamps and accessories, as well as its powerful two-cycle engine which is coupled to a three-speed, sliding gear transmission.

This vehicle has had only four owners from new and was once a prominent part of the fames Harrah's automobile collection in Reno, Nevada. It is the only operational example in existence.

It is a right-hand-drive Touring car painted in Bordeux Red with a black buttoned leather interior. The restoration is still fresh, even after being completed in the 1980s. It has Gray and Davis headlamps, side lamps and tail lamps.

It was shown at the Meadow Brook Concours where it was awarded 'The Debut Award', which is awarded to the motor car deemed most significant on the field in its first showing. Prior to the Meadow Brook showing, it was never shown.

A few months after its Meadow Brook debut, the car was brought to the Vintage Motor Cars sale at Hershey, PA presented by RM Auctions. It was estimated to sell for $180,000 - $220,000. The estimates proved accurate as the lot was sold for $220,000.

<!--halfWideBoxBottomLines--> Harry A. Knox founded the Knox Automobile Company in Springfield, Massachusetts in 1897. During the early years of production, the company prospered as their air-cooled vehicles were known for their quality and durability. Difficulties and disagreements with his financial backers had Harry Knox leaving the company a few years after its inception. In 1905 he formed the Knox Motor Truck Company, also based in Springfield. The management of the Knox Automobile Company felt did not agree with the name of the new truck company, so Harry Knox soon found himself being sued. Just like Ransom E. Olds, Knox was forbidden to use his own name. In 1907 he chose the name Atlas Motor Car Company, after his first two-ton truck called the Atlas. That same year he acquired a license with the Sunset Automobile Company of San Francisco to use their two-stroke engines.

The Atlas models were promoted as the 'Perfect Two Cycle Engine.' They came in two-stroke, two-cylinder and four-cylinder versions. Their product soon became popular, especially the taxi cab and delivery vans.

Racing and endurance challenges were monumental resources for selling vehicles in the early 1900s. A win on Sunday meant great sales on Monday. Harry entered and piloted an Atlas vehicle in the 1909 Vanderbilt race. The race was very popular and very competitive. When Harry crossed the line in fifth place, the public acknowledged this accomplishment and sales began to increase. This success would be rather brief, as the lifespan of the competitiveness of the Sunset engines, both on the racing circuit and in production, soon faded. A suitable replacement could not be found which spelled the demise of the company. Knox re-organized the company to produce the Atlas-Knight. These vehicles, offered in a five and seven passenger touring cars, were powered by sleeve-valve engines. The sleeve-valve engine was a mechanical masterpiece that had no valves and only five moving parts. It had an offset crankshaft and lacked the problematic parts such as camshafts, valve seals, bearings, and rocker arms. Production lasted from 1911 to 1913.
























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<center>1910 Atlas Model H


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1901 Knox Model A


<table border="0" cellspacing="5" width="440"><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td><td valign="top">View more photos
Runabout
</td></tr></tbody></table>This light 'runabout' was the first standardized American automobile and was developed between 1897 and 1900. This three-wheeled vehicle illustrates the technical links between the bicycle, the horse-drawn carriage and the infant auto industry. The running gear of this machine reflects bicycle technology; the body is typical of carriage construction with the horse removed and replaced by a motor, an innovation that made runabouts popular and trendy. However, many people felt they resembled awkward, unfinished horse carriages.

Rather than a steering wheel, the 1901 Knox Model A Runabout was guided by a tiller. Few American automobiles adopted the steering wheel in 1900 because its practical advantages were not yet generally appreciated. The steering wheel was thought to be an 'affectation' of contemporary European cars, where it was already a universal automobile element by 1900.

The manufacturer of this vehicle was Harry A. Knox. As a young graduate of Springfield Technical Institute, Knox met J. Frank Duryea, the builder of America's first successful gasoline-powered automobile. Duryea encouraged him to develop experimental cars, and this led to the formation of the Knox Automobile Company in Springfield, Massachusetts in 1889. The factory produced 15 of the three-wheeled runabouts in 1900 and a phenomenal 100 the following year. Knox resigned from his company in 1904 over a management dispute, but his company continued to build motorcars until 1914.

Pictures of Knox Automobile Factory and Knox Advertisements here;

http://rides.webshots.com/album/549102117emkkPa

There is also a book available on the Knox Automobile Company;

 

Allan said of the PEERLESS V-16, etc.: The engine block is aluminum with nickel-iron cylinder sleeves. The connecting rods are forged aluminum alloy with steel caps. The pistons are cast aluminum alloy. The cylinder heads, intake manifold, bell housing and transmission case are cast aluminum. The carburetor housings are aluminum. The front axle is an aluminum forging and the rear axle housing is an aluminum casting. The brake drums (with a thin steel liner), brake shoes and wheels are aluminum. A great reference about this car can be found in an issue of Automobile Quarterly entitled Forever Peerless by Stuart W. Wells I believe in 1999.

Jimi says: Holy! Peerless REALLY was setting the stage for their version of light-weight performance, IN THE EVENT they decided to proceed in the business -- weren't they???

The info Allan provided on the INTERNAL components alone is evidence of AMAZING engineering, for 1930/31 (when the R&D work would have been done for this '32). Some of the OTHER compoennts, though, I really wonder how those would have worked out after putting 100,000 miles on any car. And knowing how aluminum oxidizes when a car has to live outside, I have to wonder about those brakes, etc. ??? I love aluminum, but I feel (like plastic) it has its PLACE.

 

SunRoofCord said: Going back to the Packard Hawk Convertible for a moment, I saw my friend who owns the Packard Hawk in the pictures above and he says that Studebaker Packard never built a convertible, not even a prototye, so we have a mystery, WHO built the Packard Hawk Convertible??????

Jimi: For my part, the mystery has me going. When I OWNED a '62 T/T Hawk, I WISHED that they'd built a convertible. But the one in Dayton is THE ONLY one I have seen (I'd EVEN thought about customizing mine into a "faux" convertible!).

So, here's my question: DO YOU SUPPOSE YOUR FRIEND, WHO OWNS THE CAR, MIGHT GET THE CODES OFF THE PLATES ON THE FIREWALL & DOOR POSTS, SUCH THAT WE COULD GET WITH A HAMB STUDE GURU AND GET THEM DE-CODED??? COULD BE THEY'D AFFIRM IT AS BEING IN-HOUSE, OR POINT TO AN EXTERNAL JOB!!

 

I don't think my friend would have that information. I don't think he has ever seen the car in the flesh. Wouldn't we need to get them from the Museum????

 

I mentioned this in an earlier post in this thread. There was a guy at hershey selling a 32 Hupmobile Victoria that I thought was the coolest thing. 32/33 8 cylinder Hupmobiles had the Ramyond Lowey designed cycle fenders and many cool art-deco styling cues. About a month ago there was a long time Hupp club member selling his unrestored victoria very similar to the one in Hershey. In the last month I've gone on a binge collecting 32/33 Hupp pictures and catalogs. This is much cheaper then buying the actual car. These cars are not extinct, but they are rare. I've been around cars for quite a while and that Hupp at Hershey was the first one I had ever seen.

 

The Marmon V16 could out run a Duesenberg to 100 mph. These cars are awesome and have been undervalued in the market for years. The styling on the V16 was pure art-deco and refined elegance. This is the convertible sedan model. Certainly not extinct, but with only about 400 built originally they are rare.

 

Jimi says: Holy! Peerless REALLY was setting the stage for their version of light-weight performance, IN THE EVENT they decided to proceed in the business -- weren't they???

The info Allan provided on the INTERNAL components alone is evidence of AMAZING engineering, for 1930/31 (when the R&D work would have been done for this '32). Some of the OTHER compoennts, though, I really wonder how those would have worked out after putting 100,000 miles on any car. And knowing how aluminum oxidizes when a car has to live outside, I have to wonder about those brakes, etc. ??? I love aluminum, but I feel (like plastic) it has its PLACE.[/QUOTE]


<CENTER style="FONT-STYLE: italic">[SIZE=+4]Plymouth Prowler [/SIZE](1997)


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Like Viper, Prowler was a low volume production (they were built in the same factory) and an image booster to the brand. Unlike Viper, it was also used as a test bed for lightweight materials and production technology, so it was not going to break even. The chassis was an aluminum space-frame bonded by MIG welding, rivets and epoxy. The body panels were either aluminum sheets or plastic composites. The suspensions and brakes used aluminum extensively, while the dashboard was magnesium. Overall, the Prowler weighed about 1.3 ton. One-third of which was aluminum.

The car had its own suspensions. Up front were double wishbones with formula car-style pushrods and inboard dampers. At the rear were a 4-link setup. Coupling to the lightweight chassis and grippy tires, it should have delivered first class handling. Unfortunately, it didn't. The Prowler's aluminum chassis might look state of the art, but unlike the contemporary Lotus Elise, it lacked rigidity. The chassis displayed noticeable flexing under load or whenever riding over bumps. No wonder Chrysler set the suspensions stiffly, but in this way the ride quality suffered.

 

That is one Gorgeous Automobile. Here's the one that was at Hershey.

 

Pretty SWEET! Especially when the Blue Streak was about to make skirted fenders de rigueur!

Hey, AlsAncle, a tad of trivia (and I'll bet YOU are one of few HAMBers who KNOW the answer). WHAT MAKE is that automobile shown on the back of the U.S. $10 bill? (And I'd always thought it was a Model A.)



ANSWER to the TRIVIA question: '25 Hupmobile

 

1933 Hupmobile 2-dr Victoria Model K

 

AlsAncle said: The Marmon V16 could out run a Duesenberg to 100 mph. These cars are awesome . . .

Jimi: Yeah, and what most people TODAY don't realize about early U.S. (and foreign) cars is that ACCELERATION and TOP SPEED were very common measures -- in the eyes of the buying public AND car people -- as to what autos were "best." Lessers gagues would have included endurance, fuel efficiency, looks and a couple of lesser ones.

Posts like this are why I feel this thread is right at HOME on the HAMB!

 

1933 Hupmobile Convertible

 

Thanks for the pictures Jim. I wish I grabbed the pictures of the second one for sale as it was much nicer for less money. The one difference was the interior on this one was better preserved. The seller deleted them after he sold the car. It was just like this one but with artillery wheels - which is was what made me hesitate as I prefer wires.

 

http://www.ritzsite.nl/Archive

/Bucciali_TAV_30_cabriolet_by_Saoutchik_1932.JPG​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Bucciali TAV 30 - cabriolet body by Saoutchik - modelyear 1932[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Probably the ultimate exotic cars: the Traction Avant (TAV; meaning front wheel drive) models manufactured by the French brothers Paul-Albert and Angelo Bucciali during the late 1920s and early 1930s. After producing some sporty cycle cars and compact road cars under the "Buc" brand name the brothers became fascinated by the low and sleek American front wheel drive cars of the mid 1920s, like the Miller Special racing car of 1924. Though an old idea, front wheel drive technology was still experimental in those days and there were a number of difficulties yet to solve (such as combining steering and propulsion and the operation of the gearbox) before front wheel drive cars could be presented for regular use.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] The Bucciali brothers decided to stop producing the Buc models and to concentrate completely on developing a new chassis and drive system for front wheel driven cars. In 1926 they presented the first two prototypes, fitted with a 4 and a 6-cylinder SCAP engine. These cars featured remarkably advanced technological solutions, complemented by elegant and luxurious bodies. Only problem was that the cars couldn't drive. A year later a revised version was presented at the Paris Motor Show with a small 1,5 litre engine but showing even more advanced solutions. Apparently this model could be ordered by customers, but it seems only the one was built. In 1928 this model was again revised and now was officially named Bucciali TAV and offered with a 2.4 litre 6-cylinder engine from Continental. Because of the lack of an longitudinal drive shaft it was possible to fit the cars with very low bodies which was done exemplary by famous coachbuilders like Labourdette.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Later the slightly underpowered 2.4 litre engine was replaced by more powerful 6 and 8 cylinder engines, also produced by Continental. These models were named TAV 30 and TAV 8 and distinguished themselves by very long and impressive bonnets. A small number of them were fitted with extremely tasteful yet avant-garde styled (roadster, cabriolet and sport coupe) bodies by Saoutchik, set off by a large flying stork symbol on each side of the bonnet. In 1931 the TAV models reached their summit with the new TAV Double Huit (Double Eight) chassis shown at the Paris Motor Show. It was a huge and prestigious platform fitted with a 16-cylinder engine constructed from 2 Continental 8-cylinder blocks joined together on one crankcase in a narrow V. This giant displaced 7.8 litre and produced 155 hp in utter silence.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Unfortunately the Double Huit also marked the end for Bucciali. The brothers never cared much about making money and the constant development of new technology rapidly depleted their funds. The TAV Double Huit chassis remained a one-off, planned to be fitted with an astonishing sport coupe body, and is still extant today. In 1932 a last new Bucciali model was shown, fitted with a V12 engine from Voisin and a striking 4-door sedan body by Saoutchik, and after that the Bucciali name disappeared from the car scene.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Only a very few Bucs and Buccialis have been manufactured during the companies existence, estimated at about 151 cars of which only 38 were fitted with front wheel drive. Of the TAV 30 model there were about ten cars made. The Bucciali brothers made cars the way they wanted to, though they envisioned a large market for their front wheel drive cars as soon as a large manufacturer would present itself and buy a production license, and they never strayed from striving for perfection. And it's this unique aspect, together with the distinct and unforgettable styling of their cars, that has kept their name from obscurity. Unfortunately few Buccialis have survived to this day, which makes them white ravens in the classic car scene. Therefore the car shown here is an exact recreation, finished in 1985. It may not be the real thing, it still is a remarkable car which keeps the unique Bucciali cars with their technology which was sometimes decades ahead in remembrance in style.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]More pictures of this car can be found on the "Bucciali Foto Gallery" pages of the man who built and owns this car, Bart de Vries.[/FONT]​

 

Bucciali

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

<!-- start content --> The Bucciali was a French automobile manufactured from 1922 until 1933. Built by the brothers Bucciali, it began life at Courbevoie as a cyclecar under the name Buc. Initial offerings were powered by twin-cylinder two-stroke 1340 cc engines. In 1925 a 1600 cc SCAP-engined model appeared, available in two versions, the "Tourisme" and the "Quatre Speciale" supercharged. A six-cylinder car of 1500 cc was also offered. 1928 saw the creation of a TAN six-cylinder and an eight-cylinder with front-wheel drive and Sensaud de Lavaud's steering and automatic gearbox, both of which caused a sensation. In the 1930s the company produced the Double Huit, also a front-wheel-drive model, which was powered by a pair of straight-eight Continental engines mounted side by side. The last of the prototypes took a Voisin 12-cylinder engine. Very few of the front-wheel-drive Buccialis ever reached the road.

While it is not known exactly how many of theTAV 12 models were produced, only two are known by automotive enthusiasts to still exist: one in America and one in France.

The TAV 12 pictured below has won its class at not only lesser-known concours events such as the Glenmoor Gathering of Significant Automobiles in Canton, Ohio in September 2006, but it has also taken honors at Pebble Beach.

Note: the black Bucciali that still exists was rebuilt by a man named Bruce Kelly

 

One more on the Hupp. I'm going to hold out for a conv coupe and then replicate this picture. The conv coupes are truely rare as I believe only a couple of 32/33s are registered with the club.

 

RE: Bucciali

Over the top cool factor. Almost like a car you would draw up in your imagination. One thing though, do the two real ones actually move on their own? I've never seen a picture of either moving - they are almost like mock ups - kinda like a Tucker.

 

HJ, IMO, the Prowler turned out to be a big disappointment after the build-up (reminiscent of the Edsel, only not on such a HUGE scale!). I'd read that a top Chrysler exec, impresed with the artists' concepts, commented: "It had BETTER have ATTITUDE."

Then, I learned it would only have a six, and now I hear the chassis was a pie-in-the-sky design. All this while other "retro" models were working out in the public eye. One more black eye Plymouth didn't NEED in its declining years. (But, then, Plymouth, just like DeSoto was launched in the late '20s as a gap-filling niche make and, therefore, expendable -- just like Pontiac over at GM). No WONDER they never got around to building the Howler RPU version!

Solution: Some HAMBer needs to make a SERIOUS hotrod out of a Prowler!!!

 

I know Bruce Kelly quite well as the one in the USA was done here in Mpls.by him. But, I never got the chance to see it before it went to Calif. Now, that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen one move either. I know they are a HUGE car

 

Marmon Convertible Coupe At Hershey 2009