History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

Don't forget the Pope Motorcycle, another part of Col. Popes empire[/QUOTE]



1913 Pope Single

 

Gotta be one of the coolest avatars on the HAMB, John!



SWI, interesting piece on badge-engineering & the foreign "DeSotos." I feel the cintinued use of the name in other countries after DeSoto fell out of favor in the U.S. is testimony to how much prestige the name had carried all along. And for a Turkish company to pick up DeSoto production after MoPar dropped them underscores the point.

BTW, I remember seeing an Australian "DeSoto circa '54 or '55 that was really a Plymouth.

Upshot? I see the survival of the name (if not marque) as a sort of vindication -- and a defense against the casual observer who might dismiss DeSoto as having been somehow sub-par & desrving of extinction! This, in the SAME way the phoenix-like Avanti, in a way, remains a namesake of Studebaker, and Jeep the same for its parent group!

 

Man, this clearly shows that the design world PAYS ATTENTION to ocncept cars! You can see elements that turned up laters on Bricklin, Ferrari, "vette, etc.

 

Darth NADER ! Ya-ha-ha-ha!!!! Best laugh so far today.
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I know I'm gonna make you 'vair guys mad, but I always thought the designers, in their effrots to be distinctive, made the front end of both Corvair series look as though something was "missing." I'm not suggesting a faux grille, but maybe something like an air dam below the bumper? I don't know. I think I'll check out the thread, "The Mother of All PhotoShop Threads" and just SEE if anybody has played with such a concept. (?)

 

Beleive it or not, back "in the day" JC Whitney, and others sold fake grilles for the Corvair for those who just could not take a car without a grille.

I have been to several conventions, and there are plenty of aftermarket spoilers for the Corvair. On the late model 66 through 69 they came factory with a small spoiler in front. The Early Camaro spoiler works well too............

A few years ago we had a Corvair show inside a mall for 4 days.
We would have someone always around with the cars.
I could not beleive how many people wanted to know what the "new" car was. They didn't beleive they were from the 60's.
Then again, I had one guy argue with me when I told him Chevrolet built them. He was adamant that Chevy would never build anything like that.....

 

That's both interesting AND funny stuff there! I checked the aforementioned thread (called actually, "The Thread to End All Photo Shop Threads").

Unfortunately, the only things they'd done were a chop, severe chop, and a slam with Tiger Paw-type tires. I won't event post them here, cause that wasn't the point.

 

Vietnam was full of DeSoto trucks when I was there, vacationing, in 67-68, Ahhh, the sandy beaches, the warm tropical sun, the bullets and screaming. Precious memories

 

Actually, Brush cars are not that uncommon. I'll have to see how many are listed in the new HCCA Directory when it comes out. I'm sure quite a few.

Some of this is repetitive of what Jimi already posted but there's new info too.

The Brush Runabout Automobile & The Brush Motor Car Co.
Brush Motor Car Co.
1907-1909

Brush Runabout Co.
1910-1913
Detroit, MI

The Brush Runabout was a light two passenger American Automobile designed by Alanson P. Brush in 1907.

The first Brush built used a single cylinder 12 HP engine with chain drive and solid tires. The cost in 1907 was $780.00.

By 1908 competition drove the price down to less than $500.00 and in 1912 a stripped down version, called the Liberty Brush sold for only $350.00.


<center>
1910 Brush Runabout </center>
Power was provided to the Brush Runabout by a large single cylinder water-cooled engine. Additional features unique to the Brush automobile was a wooden chassis, actually wooden rails and iron cross-members, friction drive transmission and coil springs in tension instead of compression.

<center>
1910 Brush Runabout Magazine Ad

</center> Alanson P. Brush had the backing of Frank and Benjamin Briscoe to form his company. In 1913 the Briscoe Brothers using Maxwell-Briscoe and Brush formed the United States Motor Company. However the United States Motor Company failed by 1914 due to the competition from Ford. One report has the total production of the Brush Runabout from 1907 to 1913 at 13,250 units.

<center>
Restored 1912 Brush Runabout

</center>
<center>
1905 Automobile Showroom </center>

 

The Bergdoll Automobile & The Louis J. Bergdoll Motor Co.

The Louis J. Bergdoll Motor Co.
Philadelphia, PA
1908-1913

This American Automobile was manufactured in Philadelphia, PA by the Louis J. Bergdoll Motor Company. The Bergdoll was a high quality automobile built from 1908 to 1913.

The Bergdoll was produced in two different popular series, the Bergdoll 30 (1908-1912) 30 horsepower and Bergdoll 40 (1912-1913) 40 horsepower.

The Bergdoll Thirty (30 horsepower) was the series produced most of the life time of this American Automobile. The Bergdoll was one of the outstanding makes of the period from the standpoint of quality. A 1910 Bergdoll Touring Car is shown below equipped with a four cylinder.

<center>
1910 Bergdoll Touring Car

</center> By 1912, the Louis J. Bergdoll Motor Co. produced five different models. The "Louis J" Roadster that sold for $1,600.00, a four door six passenger Touring Car also priced at $1,600.00, a $2,500.00 Limousine, a small Toy Tonneau at $1,600.00 and a five passenger Touring Car priced at $1,500.00.

<center>
1912 Bergdoll Models

</center>

<center>
1912 Bergdoll Model 40</center>

 

The Carter Twin Engine Automobile & The Carter Motor Car Corporation

The Carter Motor Car Corporation
Factory - Hyattsville, Maryland
Office - Washington, DC & Detroit
1907-1908

Known as the Carter Twin Engine car this American Automobile had two engines in one car to eliminate driving worries.

This car was manufactured in 1907 and 1908 by The Carter Motor Car Corporation that had headquarters in Washington, DC and a large factory in Hyattsville, Maryland.

<center>
1908 Carter Twin Engine Automobile

</center> The Carter Twin Engine automobile was a five passenger touring car. The engines were place side by side and except for a slightly wider hood on the Carter, it would be hard to tell it from any other 1908 American Automobile. The price of The Carter Twin Engine automobile was $4,000.00 in 1908.

<center> Carter Twin Engine Chassis

</center> Two engines under one hood must have been an engineering nightmare. The engines could be run separately or both together, driving the rear wheels at the same time. The two four cylinder engine developed 35-40 horsepower each for a total of 70 horsepower. Each motor had individual ignition, carburetor, lubrication and clutch mechanism. The Carter Twin Engine automobile also had independent duplex radiators. Final drive was by a single shaft. When one engine was running the driver did not have to leave his seat to start the second, a small foot lever would throw in the clutch and the Carter automobile instantly responds to the increased horsepower.

<center> 1908 Carter Twin Engine

</center> In the 1908 advertisement above and below claims made included "Absolute Reliability, Economy, durability, Power and Speed are the merits found in all Carter Twin-Engine Cars". Another claim made - "The Twin-Engine principle is adopted by the Navy Departments of the world". The advantage of twin engine have long been recognized for marine service, and the safeguard against absolute breakdown.




<center> 1908 Carter Twin Engine Advertisement

</center> In 1909 the Carter Twin Engine automobile sales failed to meet expectations and The Carter Motor Car Corporation reorganized to produce the Washington automobile.

 

The Washington Automobile & The Carter Motor Car Corporation

The Carter Motor Car Corporation
Office - Washington, DC
Factory - Hyattsville, Maryland
1909-1912

Brothers, A. Gary Carter, president of the corporation and Frank L. Carter, its treasurer formed The Carter Motor Car Corporation in 1907 to produce the Carter Twin Engine automobile (1907-1908) and the Washington automobile (1909-1911).

The Washington was an American Automobile that had up to five body styles.

<center> 1909 Washington Roadster Advertisement

</center> The first Washington automobile shown above was built at a factory in Hyattsville, Maryland near Washington, DC. It's office and sales room was in Washington, DC. Advertising claims included "Compare this car with all others from the highest to the lowest price".

Advertised as a $1,250.00 Roadster above, the Washington was equipped with a four cylinder water cooled engine that developed 30 horsepower. The transmission used was a selective type with three speeds forward and shaft drive. Artillery type wheels and wire wheels were 34 x 3 1/2 inches. Wheelbase was 106 inches and a standard tread of 56 inches.

<center> 1910 Washington Touring Car Advertisement

</center> Often early American Automobiles entered road races to test their cars and it was great advertising if winners. In the above 1910 advertisement the Washington automobile claimed two victories. The first was a run to Richmond, VA and in that race three Washington automobiles obtained perfect scores. The second was the 1910 Munsey Historic Tour, a grueling 12 day run of 1,500 miles and two Washington cars finished with perfect road scores.

<center> 1911 Washington

</center> Following the fall of 1910 the business was enlarged from a selling viewpoint, but never attained large proportions. The Carter Motor Car Corporation never was affiliated with any of the automobile organizations of national scope. The line was exhibited at an independent show in 1911. However, in 1912 The Carter Motor Car Corporation was hopelessly insolvent and had to face bankruptcy proceedings. Wilton J. Lambert and A. Gary Carter were appointed receivers of the Carter Motor Car Corporation.

<center> 1912 Washington Touring Car Letter Head</center>

 

Karl la Fong said: Vietnam was full of DeSoto trucks when I was there, vacationing, in 67-68, Ahhh, the sandy beaches, the warm tropical sun, the bullets and screaming. Precious memories

Jimi: Hey there is no such thing as a perfect getaway, ya know? (Wry sense of humor there, John! This car thread is getting to be the most comedy in my life right now, since comedians Leno and O'Brien turned nasty.)

 

When you brought this 1912 Brush runabout up, I immediately thought how STRIKING it is! Then, I got to wondering if MAYBE this is the one Mac the Yankee raved about a couple of days ago (?). They didn't say COOL in 1912, but this is COOL!!!

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<table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="20" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>1941 Raymond Loewy Designed Lincoln Continental</td></tr><tr></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="324"><table align="left" border="1" bordercolor="#000000" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="2" width="250" height="160"> <tbody><tr> <td width="250" height="160"></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> <td valign="top" width="324"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="260"> <tbody><tr> <td valign="top" height="100"></td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" height="100"></td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" height="97"></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="regular">Designed by iconic industrial designer Raymond Loewy with bodywork by Derham. With only two built specifically for Mr. and Mrs. Loewy, this is the only one known to exist.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

SUNROOFCORD posted

<CENTER> Carter Twin Engine Chassis

</CENTER>Two engines under one hood must have been an engineering nightmare. The engines could be run separately or both together, driving the rear wheels at the same time. The two four cylinder engine developed 35-40 horsepower each for a total of 70 horsepower. Each motor had individual ignition, carburetor, lubrication and clutch mechanism. The Carter Twin Engine automobile also had independent duplex radiators. Final drive was by a single shaft. When one engine was running the driver did not have to leave his seat to start the second, a small foot lever would throw in the clutch and the Carter automobile instantly responds to the increased horsepower.

This mentions Ford's inginuity. Like they say everything "old" is "new" again.

Persistence has paid off in solving the mystic behind this mid 40's FORD COE TWIN ENGINE---


This is perhaps one of the rarest examples of Ford ingenuity in existence today -- for a fact it is the only one. Here is it's story quoted from another web page.​

"As the fires of war engulfed much of the globe in the mid-to-late thirties, the free world that still existed turned to the United States for help. American factories began to reap the profits from that foreign war. As the firestorms of war engulfed more and more of the globe, it became evident to many in the U.S. that we must prepare to defend our way of life. The problem was that all of the possible aircraft plants in the U.S. had contracted all of the production that they could possibly handle to the British and others.

It was at this point that the federal government turned to Henry Ford with the question, "Can you build aircraft (bombers) the same way as you have built cars?" Mr. Ford replied, "I suppose, Let&#8217;s take a look," At this point Mr. Ford along with a group of company officials went to San Diego, California to look at Consolidated Aircraft&#8217;s B-24 Bomber assembly line and designs. From this visit and others the famous Willow Run plant and its production came into being. The main point with which we are concerned is that Lloyd Lawson of the E &L Transport Company was in the group to look into providing transportation of the components which would be produced at Willow Run Ill. The components of the bombers would be shipped to San Diego Ca., Fort Worth, Texas, and Oklahoma City Okla. where plant space was available.

Lloyd Lawson returned to E&L Transport Company in Dearborn, Michigan. The company designed the twin engine Ford truck tractors, using 2-100 horse powered Ford truck engines driving 4-speed Warner transmissions and Timken differentials. Each engine had it's own, ignition switch, gauges, radiator, Transmission drive shaft and rear end. This was basically tow-one and a half ton trucks in one chassis using standard off-the-shelf cabover engine Ford truck parts. Some parts were modified, but all were Ford. The drawing board and blue prints consisted of the plans being drawn on the concrete floor with soap stone. The engineers consisted of the men working in the shop. The total production number of these vehicles was 96 to 98. About one half of these vehicles had the rounded cab as does #50. The other trucks were designed with the more square cab."





"According to the caption for this June 17, 1942, photo, this is simply a &#8220;Ford truck to haul bomber parts,&#8221; but our friend Fred Crismon, author of &#8220;U.S. Military Wheeled Vehicles,&#8221; has more:

Early in 1943 [which clashes with the date of the above photo -ed.] this highly specialized vehicle was shown to the public, identified as a tractor designed to pull a 60-foot-long &#8220;supertrailer&#8221; in which 34 complete tail cone assemblies could be carried. The tail cones were for the B-24 bomber of which Ford was one of several builders. The assemblies were carried between several manufacturing plants according to contemporary sources, invluding runs between California and Texas, Willow Run, Michigan, and Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Fort Worth, Texas, and between Loudonville, Ohio, and Buffalo, New York. Two Mercury V-8s were used, driving into synchronized transmissions.

Crismon also noted that the tractor was rated at 10 tons and that the trailer was loaded from the top by overhead cranes. About 70 of the trucks were built, and the twin engines were accessed by pulling them as a unit out the front of the tractor. Crismon provides evidence that, although Ford was often mentioned as the builder of the trucks, a company named Thorco Dual Motors built them &#8211; Thorco being a trademark for the Thornton Acle Company. However, James Wagner, the author of &#8220;Ford Trucks Since 1905,&#8221; wrote that about 100 tractors were built by E and L Transport of Dearborn, and the corresponding trailers were built by Mechanical Handling Systems."


source: HEMMINGS AUTO BLOG and THE OLD TRUCK HOME

 

Pretty AMAZING. AND these twin-engined vehicles predated the tandem use of Hemis and such in racing, much later, I do believe (anyway, that's a whole different proposition, engineering-wise).

 

You all will remember me raving a tad about automotive genius Charles Brady King (anybody read his amazing life story yet?)

Any-who, since the CarterCar -- "The Car of a Thousand Speeds" came up thanks to SunRoofCord, it's time to relate two pretty amazing stories about Byron Carter, here's a man who, essentially gave his life for the early development of innovative cars in the U.S. !!!

After King's historic ride the March night in 1896, he was, er, uh, under-whelmed with support (none) for building his machines in number. So he tore down his car and followed more profitable pursuits (no dummy, he was Cornell educated). He sold the chassis to Byron Carter who would go on to build the famous (to car people) CarterCar.

Now here's the first COOL thing, I feel. Even critical newspapermen liked the CarterCar, in large part because of its singular transmission (which only a few, less successful, companies would imitate, such as Petrel, Lambert and Metz, all of which required more frequent service than a Carter).

The Friction-Drive transmission, according to Wikipedia, was a sort of predecessor to the modern "CVT" (Continuous Velocity Transmission) that is used in a good many -- surprising -- applications, from lawn tractors to ATVs and more. Like the CVT, the Friction Drive enabled an early driver to select any ratio, as opposed to having set gear ratios, as in regular geared transmissions.

Wikipedia editors further explain that the Friction-Drive was a functional, practical AND economical transmission in that the paper-fiber rims integral in the Friction-Drive units only had to be replaced at about 4,000 miles -- even then, at a cost of about $5, much cheaper than other transmission service. Like today's CVTs, the Friction-Drive offered a plethora of engine speeds, unlike a regular tranny with multiple gears. (Incidentally, an impressed Billy Durant bought CarterCar in late 1909 during his first stint at GM.)

SECOND -- and tragic -- chapter of the Byron Carter story:

All car buffs know that before the electric starter was invented by Charles Kettering in 1912, lots of people suffered hand, arm and other injuries when the hand-crank would kick back during the routine starting procedure. Maybe the lucky ones only got a gimpy hand or a broken arm.

In 1908, Byron Carter was hit in the jaw by an engine crank as he worked at restarting a stalled car. The injury led to gangrene and, eventually, Carter's demise. Henry Leland, Cadillac's founder, had been a close friend of Carter and, apparently, his friend's sad end, prompted Leland to get behind development of the automatic starter, finally patented and introduced in 1912.

If auto pioneer Byron Carter was fated to die an untimely and horrible death, it is good that, as a result at least, hundreds or thousands of people were subsequently spared injury or death from the old-fashioned engine cranks.

 

That might be it- cute as a bug's ear! You gotta love the wodden front axle AND frame .

 

All this talk of twin engined vehicles makes me think of Ed Roth's Mysterion.


These twin engines didn't work well for Roth either, too heavy kept cracking the frame.............
If the photo does not show, try clicking on it.

 

Mac said:

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That might be it- cute as a bug's ear! You gotta love the wooden front axle AND frame .

Jimi: It sure is, Mac. You just wanna HOP IN and take it for a spin (I always wanted to drive a curved-dash Olds, too!)! I'm always railing that not all early cars were cantankerous contraptions doomed to extinction. Many, like the Brush, were VERY good and appropriate cars for their time, ESPECIALLY given the general state of development of (or, better, LACK thereof!) America's roads.

As quaint as the wooden chassis is (especially that prominent front axle), Alanson Brush specifically designed the cars for flexibility, durability and plenty of ground clearance, with a modicum of power -- good for unpaved or poorly paved country byways.

MY take on why Brush and so many other "good" makes went under comes down to unit cost. As Ford and others using more efficient assembly methods cranked out lower-price cars, the smaller companies -- even prior to WWI (not just a '20s/'30s thing) -- just couldn't stay in the market for long. Biz = profits, and if people are buying somebody else's product instead of yours, you're soon in the red! More so than under-capitalization, I would venture that THIS was the main thing that killed so many starry-eyed, early would-be auto moguls. Anyone else want to vote on that -- yea or may? <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

 

Hey, SWI, I never saw this before! When did Big Daddy build it?

 

SunRoof & HJ, wow, very informative, but this raises more questions than it answers. For one: Is that a DOUBLE chain-drive ahead of the tranny?

I REALLY wonder if one of these rare Carter Twins is in a museum somewhere!
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Side by side Check this link out: slightly O/T though.

http://twotogo.homestead.com/TwoToGoPageTwo.html

 

Given that frame looks like Swiss Cheese I'm not surprised!

 

Before we leave International Harvester, here's a little more. If I belabor I-H, it is only because they are overlooked by so many who just don't know what niche to file them in, or thnk of them ONLY for trucks. More eye candy, any-who!

This SWEET '39 I-H belongs to HAMBer ClayMart of Fort Wayne.



For contrast, JReeder41 is reworking this bone-stock '34 I-H for a client.

 

Not extinct, BUT A FIRST. Thanks to ConceptCarz, here's the second year of the I-H Travelall series that ran from '53 through '75. This truck is in the truck museum in Auburn, IN. I-H purists claim that the Travelall's features made it the first U.S. SUV, though the '38 Chevy Suburban crowd may argue the point. Opinions? For '56, Travelall began offering 4WD. For more details, please see the ConceptCarz site on the I-H Travelall, also including more pix!

 

Here...I'll add one I happen to have of the same display at the same museum.




Couple more here-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48076624@N00/sets/72157603857464730/

 

A couple of days ago, I asked (almost whimsically) if Studebaker or International-Harvester was the longer-running auto company. When I looked into the history of the companies, it began to look like a REAL apples-and-oranges comparison. It really depends how you frame the question AND how you define terms, too! One should be careful what idle questions he/she asks !!!

Studebaker always had the Stude name in its organizational title, dating back to 1852 when the Studebaker brothers began making wagons for hauling goods and people and continuing through the end of auto production in Canada in 1966. Stude began making cars in 1902 with an electric that ran through 1912 (though they kept making wagons, too, for some two more decades).

So, you could say Studebaker was in the transportation vehicle business for 114 years, OR the auto business for 65 model seasons -- right?

Now International-Harvester only BECAME I-H when they formed a new company and began making autos in 1902. If we count their longevity in the passenger-car/truck industry ONLY, that's '02 through '75 -- 74 model seasons -- right?

But even I-H dated their company roots back to McCormick reapers, patented in 1834, with reapers being sold commercially by 1847. So, if we date the organization from 1847 'til they quit making passenger vehicles after the '75 model year, that makes I-H/McCormick a 129-year proposition.

Now, all this discounts -- for the sake of simplicity -- the fact that Studebaker survived by switching to other business ventures than autos, even though the Studebaker name is tough to trace to present day. This, as well as the fact that I-H continued making heavy trucks through 1985 when they became part of Case IH then, finally, joined into NAVISTAR (with new trucks still bearing the I-H name on their grilles and fenders today).


1903 Stude ad, thanks to the WikiMedia Commons project

<CENTER></CENTER><CENTER>This photo of a McCormick model reaper at work is in </CENTER><CENTER>the collections of the Historical Society of Wisconsin.</CENTER><CENTER>Sincere appreciation is expressed.</CENTER>

 

Hi there, CustomCab! Thanks for dropping in on this thread with another I-H pic. Not that the early Travelall is rare as a Dodo bird, just scarce nowadays and symbolizing the first of a breed (the SUV).

Do yo have fairly easy access to the museum? If so, my we ask about other trucks in the collection? In particular, I haven't been able to find a pic or drawing of an EARLY Reo Speedwagon -- the ones that looked like they had little more than buckboard beds on the rear.