welding on mid 20's model T frame

l have a model T frame that needs boxed and streched and z'd so l can start mock up. l was told that because of the type metal used in these frame that welding will not work to for what l want, ls this true 4 link and panhard bar, coilover shocks, mustang ll front end, disc drum brake set up, ford 9 inch and the dredded small block chevy[350 horse 1969 327 and a 700R4]
lf l cannot weld on this frame, what are the options? any help would be greatly appreacted,,,later and thanks

l know it looks rough now but with time and money it'll be better

 

I'm a newb at this too so hopefully some more experienced guys will chime in. I've got a '27 RPU and the stock frame looks woefully weak. I would say too weak for what you plan to do. I just picked up a Model A frame this morning, on advice from fellow HAMBers, to mount my body on. Much more stout and taller rails too.

 

Sounds like you have the skills to just do a new frame. I'm no expert, but that would be cheaper and safer than playing with 85 year old steel. T frames are cheap even if you have someone else make one for you.

And are you sure you want a Mustang II front suspension. That's kinda big and would look awkward. T's are best kept simple, in my opinion. Good luck with your project.

 

The T frame is just straight rails. If you are not going to use the crossmembers for buggy springs, you might as well start over with tubing.

 

Why cut up a nice stock T frame? Sell it to a restorer, or to someone for a speedster.

With the changes/configuration you are talking about using a T frame as a base just makes no sense at all.

Build a new frame or buy a new 'hot rod' core frame - they are like $300 - and work from that.

 

I would build a new frame using 2x3 or 2x4 11 ga. rather than do all that work on a T frame. It would be less work with a better finished product

 

thank you!

that was great guys,, sounds like l start from scratch and that is the best way,, if any one needs a Model A frame and your'e in western washington, pm me and l will sell it to ya!!!!!! again,, thanks,,later

 

Several years ago I took a weld metalurgy cl*** at our local university. The instructor said that steel made prior the '40s should not be welded by any process because it would fail. He was real vague on the time frame but said it was made by the Bessemer process back then and that was why frames were riveted together. I'm sure some people will say they've never had any problems welding old frames but I'm just p***ing on what I've been told. I would start from scratch anyway.

 

Your Instructor obviously never knew that welding frames has been accepted practice since the first cars were made and in fact modern frames, as in 70s-80s Chevrolet pickup/suburban frames, shouldn't be welded on or heated because of their steel alloy.

 

skull, where are you in wa.?

 

I made my T frame in 3" x 1.5" x 1/8" wall box, They are very easy to make, A T frame needs to be thought out as they are small cars and can look heavy with 4" x 2" box in my opinion.

here's a shot of mine, hope it helps

 

A Mustang II suspension in a Model T is about the ugliest conglomeration of parts I can think of...and theres NO WAY to hide it!
Are your SURE you thought this thru????

All I need to do is look at "Royalshifters" T to know that a real T frame just has that LOOK somehow.

Wow...I just reread your post AND the additional "fine print"!
You need to just go ORDER a prebuilt frame...

 

I thought the old frame were A7 steel?

 

[ model T frame that langy built looks good.. can l copy ur work? also l have driven straight axle cars and do not like how they hande,, the front end will be of the round tube A arm syle like heidts or fatman has,, it will have a rack and pinion also,, l built a 29 roadster with this set up and it handled like a go cart,, it had the 2x3 square frame and looked a lot like langlys frame,,, again,, thanks,, you guys are very helpful,, later

 

skull, beam front doesn't have to handle badly, its all about how they are setup and how you drive em. Last year at our Outlaw drag n picnic they introduced a slalom course, my T went through it 2 seconds quicker than a modern car

 

Naaaa...no way! LOL
Thats an antiquated suspension!!!! Modern stuff is wonderful.....

MII stuff is gonna put a T frame right out of the HAMB era.
Fat fenders etc get lots of la***ude when it comes to suspension because you can't see the stuff anyway...but on a car as open as a T its part of the overall styling...

 

I think some of the IFS guys were a tad embarr***ed

 

In the 50's I used 2 t frames cause they were free and I wasn't paying the elect bill. welding rod was charged to the ranch operation. I used the rails to build a box frame then ground it smooth from the firewall foreward. It was lots of work . never again !! It's a lot easier to use new tubing. Youngster has posted free ch***is plans on the tbucketeers site. A lot of new trucks have a decal on the frame rails saying do not drill holes in flanges or do not weld. My backhoe has places on it cast that say do not weld.

 

I call bill**** story....welding was limited and frames were rivited to flex with all the rough unpaved roads. $.02

 

That "T" frame is about as easy of a frame to build there is. I agree get yourself some 2X3 and get to building...sell that stock frame to help fund the build.

 

I agree.
Rivets meant that unskilled labour could ***emble the frame, thus the frame cost less. Also individual pieces could be replaced later if damaged somehow.
Very important to the owner back in the early days.
Modern frames are welded together...yet you can't weld on the frame. Puzzling...

Last year ------- had some potential issues with the built-in trailer hitch of the SUV's. MINOR stuff, but ------- doesn't mess around...they want things perfect!
The fix was to weld them. Very simple and easy access on a lift.
The dealership where I worked was asked if we in the bodyshop had the skills and equipment to do the repair. The answer was yes, of course.
The Rep said with a wink and a nudge that we might want to reconsider that and have the hitches rewelded by a third party professional welding service who would then be the liable party if something somehow went astray.

Liability and Lawsuits.

Thats what EVERYTHING hinges off of these days...(and why I didn't post the name of the manufacturer!)

 

Building a new frame out of tubing would be a lot simpler in the long run than trying to do all the work needed to modify a stock T frame the way you plan.

The MII style independent front ends on open wheel cars might drive good but they sure are ugly to look at. There are at least two with that setup in Yakima a T and a 34 or so pickup and that is the distraction on otherwise nice looking rods in both cases. The owner of the truck has it bagged which makes it even worse. But do your own thing and don't get pissed off when other Hambers in the pnw point and laugh.

Worse comes to worse you can always run over the p*** to Yakima on friday nights and park the car between the truck and the green T bucket at McDonalds cruise night and be right at home with like minds.
Here is a photo of the 23 with the MII setup. It's an otherwise textbook T bucket with all the normal trinkets until you get to the front suspension. Cell phone photo so it isn't the greatest.

Lots of bulk hanging out on the front of an otherwise slick little car.
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This is true. It's not that frame can't be welded on. It's that the original manufacturers need to cover themselves against legal threats.
Poor welding skills and heat ranges affecting the steel may/ could result in weak spots and cracked or broken frames.

So the party of the first part must do all it can to protect itself from legal actions brought against the party of the first part by the party of the second part...hence we have factory labeling. That way they can say they told you not to...it's right there...on that label.

 

Unless you are trying to build a '40s-'50 clone car as Von Franco does use the new tubing. Much easier to make it safe. And I don't know why you want to trade all that ugly Pinto suspension for a little better handling. Much better choices such as torsion bars hidden in the frame.

 

Man, this thread is ALL over the place. I'm no metalurgist, but I've got a 1915-20 or so T frame with a few welds. They don't look like repair jobs either. What would be the difference between a 1915-20 frame and a 1928-31 frame as far as metal quality and make-up?

 

When you build your frame post some pictures of the build.....

 

I'm with you on this one. Steel is steel, it dosen't matter what process is used to make it as long as a consistant quality is achieved and the steel meets its desired specification.
The electric welding process was not available until the 1920's prior to that oxy/acet was available from the 1890's. A rivetted frame allows more movement and flex than welds and was used for live loads on bridges and ships as well as ch***is.
The 'instructor' refered to above may be confusing 'wrought iron' with steel when he said it couldn't be welded, and he is wrong on that count as well. Prior to the advent of modern welding processes blacksmiths did all the welding, known as fire or forge welding both pieces of iron were bought to white hot heat in a forge fire, quickly withdrawn from the fire and descaled, one piece laid on top of the other and hammered down. The metal being in a plastic state is forced together by the hammer blows which are just medium to light blows, the two or more pieces being welded fuse together to become one homogenous m***. If you ever get the chance to see it done take it, it can be a spectacular sight.
Wrought Iron was made in Puddling Furnaces, steel in Bessemer. Modern steel was the accidental result of someone trying to use m*** production techniques to produce wrought iron more efficiently, he didn't get the result he wanted but he did make a fortune in steel. For the first time a manufacturer was able to produce steel of a consistant quality, the rest as they say is history.

 

Correct. Many people forget to think of things as they were at the time. Riveting was mainstream for quite a long time. Skys****ers were built with all of the girders riveted together. Ships, locomotives, boilers and autoomobiles were riveted because that was as mainstream to them as welding is to us now. Maybe 60 years from now the future HAMBers will be wondering why we welded our hot rods instead of simply gluing them together. And I'm sure that some dimwit shop teacher then will be saying 'it's because the steel they used at the time could not be glued'. LOL

 

cant weld a frame? hmmmmm, i guess alot of folks who boxed their original frames must be amazing, cause it sure looks too me that those boxing plates are welded in.

 

So, does this really mean that these Chevy frames really should not be welded on, or is this GM's version of the CYA ploy? I'm curious, because I've been eyeballing this series of trucks for a project.


Thanks, *****6