I saw the same thing in the tool room, especially in the summer when the A/C was on every where. The mills would change speed slightly. In the morning, before the outside temp. was at its peak, the EDMs would burn better.
Too many outlets, even if not in use, can be a problem. You even alluded to it being a voltage drop issue. Too many outlets means there are a lot of connections, because you are running the wire through each outlet and on to the next. The result is a lot of connections that could be affecting the circuit, plus the total length of the run is likely quite a bit longer than if you just had a few outlets on each circuit breaker.
I'll repeat what I said; the number of outlets doesn't matter. A properly done connection whether it's a splice or device termination will present a resistance too low to measure. With #12 wire, voltage drop won't become an issue until circuit length gets above 100 feet. There is a common mistake made by amateurs when installing outlets however and it may be the issue here. Using the outlet as a splice point, i.e. connecting the incoming wires to two of the connections on the device then connecting the outgoing wires to the other two is bad (and illegal per the NEC). The link on the device that connects the terminals is only rated at 15 amps (even on a 20 amp rated device) and can cause issues downstream if connected that way. This is a particular problem if using 'stab-in' devices where you just strip the wire and 'stab' it into a hole. The proper way to terminate the device and pass-through other wires is to 'pigtail' the wires by splicing incoming and outgoing wires together along with a 6" length of wire, then connecting the short wire (pigtail) to the device. And before someone asks the 'why do these have four connections if you can only use two of them' question, that's so you can 'split' the receptacle by breaking out the connecting link and feeding each half separately. Commonly used for switching half so you can control a table or floor light with a wall switch but still have continuous power on the other half. The only receptacle type legal for 'pass-through' wiring is the GFCI type where you want the downstream receptacles GFCI protected. I'll also note that there's different 'grade' receptacles; there's 'light duty' residential (these will be the back-wire stab-in-wiring type, no screw connections), a 'better' residential (with both stabs and screws), 'commercial' (screws only), and 'hospital' (a heavy-duty version of commercial). The residential will be rated at 15 amps, commercial/hospital at 20 amps. In a shop environment I'd use no less than commercial grade for reliability. Some commercial/hospital devices will be back-wire (holes to insert the wire into) but don't confuse these with the residential units; this is to allow using stranded wire without needing a ring or fork terminal and the connection is still made by tightening the screw.
Crazy Steve , thank for posting your well-written explanation , I'm glad to read that there are others who actually "get it".... I wish I had a dollar for every time I've found those stab in outlets used improperly & causing trouble , especially when used as a pass-thru... dave
its voltage drop due to resistance in the building wiring , my garage was wired by a DIyer who jusy added more outlets to the existing wiring , if yo plug inot the outlet closet to the breaker the welder worked great , but if you plugged into the outlet near the overhead door it would sputter and pop and stick , I looked at all the wiring and there were 6 outlets in a line and the wiring ended and started at each outlet using the outlet as a connector/bridge to the next outlet and the outlet bus bars on some of them were showing signs of heat , so I pulled 3 of the outlets and wired them correctly and now can weld at the front middle and back of the shop with no problems.
Crazy Steve, great detail in your post, thanks. My reply was based on the OP's comment "The guy that had the home before me put in about 15 outlets in the shop". There's a pretty high likelyhood (and my assumption) that "the guy" chained the outlets together, resulting in what appears to be a low voltage condition at the welder.
Ok guys .I shut all the breakers off except the one outlet i was welding with and it seem to weld just fine , so i wonder if is a voltage drop? .Thanks for all the input.Bruce.
Probably yes. If the last guy wired 15 flippin' outlets to one circuit, chances are his workmanship sucked.
My advice to your problem, call an electrician, any advice from me or the other posters will be a SWAG as to your problem. You need a hands on journeyman to find the problem.
No , he needs someone who knows how to wire correctly & that also means understanding load assessment, that doesn't translate specifically to "journeyman" [in the last 40 years as a remodeling contractor I've seen a few that I wouldn't let wire anything !!! & a few non-union guys who were real pro's !! dave Bash away !!!!
Yousaid the garage has its own dedicated power. Add a dedicated 20 amp for your welder, and split the circuit with 15 outlets into 2. I wired my shop with all 20 amp, only 5 outlets per circuit -overkill, yes, but I don't have to worry about running what I want where I want to. 2 dedicated 30 amp for welder and compressor, then added a 50 amp in case someone wants to bring over an arc welder or a big mig. I can run an old electric stove on the 50 amp for powdercoating when I find a free one.
Yep, trying to diagnose this long distance with a non-electrician as your 'hands' is an exercise in futility. I am an electrician (retired) and can think offhand of a half-dozen things it could be and still wouldn't put down a bet that it would have to be any of those. It does sound like a 'service' issue, i.e. utility power to service mast, mast to meter, meter to panel, panel. A variety of problems are possible for each 'piece' mentioned, but again, it could be something else. Try very hard to be there when the guy comes, explain/demonstrate the issue, and don't be surprised if it takes an hour or two to find it....
Plug in a 60 watt lamp into the same outlet or branch, then weld and observer the lamp. If it flickers it sounds like you have a voltage drop somewhere. Also when you welded first, and it worked correctly, were you welding at a low current, then when welding at your shop you increase the current to weld. That will surely give you troubles if your power is not up to the high current.
If you're going to run your own outlets, here's what I did in my garage. I ran two separate 20-amp circuits off of my main panel into a switch box, as seen in the right side of this picture. Each circuit has it's own neutral (I would recommend against shared-neutrals). That way, I can leave all of my shop equipment plugged in. When I'm done wrenching for the night, I can switch the juice off to my tools. I have two outlet boxes with three duplex receptacles. At the end of the run, I have a constant-hot wire feeding my beer fridge, independent of the switch box setting. On my outlets, I broke the two tangs that gang the duplex together. One circuit feeds the top "half" row of the receptacles and the other circuit feeds the lower half row. Without going into the specifics of how my house is wired at the panel, I did this to share the load on the two hot bus bars in the panel and reduces the voltage drop of high-amp tools so the house lights don't dim too much (and my wife complains!). I also ran outlets from this switch box to the other side of my garage, going to two outlet boxes, each with two duplex receptacles. Again, one box is wired to one circuit, and the other to the other circuit. So far this setup has worked awesome for me.
I'll also pre-emptively say that before anyone mentions my "love" of Summit Racing stickers, this is what happens when you combine a garage, tools, whiskey, a stack of summit stickers and a Friday night!
Shared neutrals are fine as long as you balance the load. The only real exceptions are large fluorescent lighting loads and some electronic/computer circuits if using three-phase power. Neither circumstance is likely to come up in a small shop or residential garage application...
I agree and yeah you gotta make sure your two hots are on separate legs. I just felt better having separate neutrals since it's one less thing to worry about, but that's just the engineer in me coming out!
Great posts, guys! Lots will benefit, as most are on a new 'budget' now...and can't all afford to bring in an electrical contractor to get these machines going, and get to work on the project! Good to get sound advice on 'simple' electricity.
I had to weld on my tractor for a plate for some weights and used the refrig. out let on the other side of the shop.Man welded great go figure! lol Bruce.
You need to brush up on your NEC code reading. Not only is it legal to use the device as a splice point, they are designed for that purpose, and it's done all the time. I've been a licensed electrician for over 35 years, and never had an inspector tag an outlet for being used as a splice point. Whenever possible I prefer to wire nut and pigtail out my splices to the outlet, but only because it's a better way to do it, not because it's the only way, or the code way. Only the ground can not be spliced through a device, and that's for safety, plus the fact the ground terminal only accepts one wire, and you can't put two wires under the same terminal per code. As for numbers of outlets on a circuit, the code specifically says to allow 180va per outlet, so we normally don't go over 7 outlets per circuit, so there is a little wiggle room for a customer if he wants to later add in another outlet or two. Never go over 10 per circuit, even in a later remodel. One of the biggest issues in most residential homes or garages that creates resistance and subsequent voltage drop issues is the use of the quick, cheap, stab back devices. These types of receptacles create a small resistance at each receptacle, and as you add receptacles, you add resistance. When you begin to plug in heavier loads like a welder, the devices break down, and heat up, which adds even more resistance, and voltage drop. I would never use stab back devices in my home, and especially not in a garage.
It worked great because the refrigerator outlet is a dedicated circuit, so no resistance in the line. I'd either use it all the time, or figure out what's wrong with all the other outlets and fix it.
We're both half right.... On a 2 wire circuit, you can legally use the outlet as a splice point. On a 3 or 4 wire circuit with a shared neutral, you have to pigtail at least the neutral. Been a long time since I did any resi work, and usually the job specs called for full pigtails. You have to pigtail the ground in any case. Still, it's not particularly a good practice to use the device as a splice point for a variety of reasons and is something I would never do for myself. The NEC is basically just a set of minimum specs and I forget exactly how they word it, but it more-or-less says that 'installation by these codes won't guarantee a usable system'...
Yes, the change on the neutral came into effect on the last code change, but it only applies to the point that a multi wire branch circuit splits. After that all the outlets on each circuit are on one hot and one neutral, so you are not referring to the situation the OP is working with. I also haven't done hardly any residential wiring in my whole career, (I did commercial, and industrial) but the codes apply for either in splicing on devices. The code you're referring to is not for devices, but for multi wire branch circuits.
I remodeled my house over a period of about 15 yrs. As I went thru each room I replaced all the outlets and switches with specification grade devices. All the original switches were just plain junk, and when operated they felt like you were pushing on a limp noodle. The outlets were pigtailed but the original installer had used the stab holes. Any outlet that was used on a regular basis was loose to the point where a plug would almost fall out if the cord was bumped. Today, the spec grade outlets that are 15 yrs old are tighter than a new and unused residential grade device, and the switches have a definite snap action rather than just sorta flopping from one position to the other. Price-wise, there's maybe $1.50 to $2 premium per outlet for the spec grade stuff, but IMO its the best 2 bucks you can ever spend especially on outlets that get used a lot or ones regularly used for heavy loads like electric power tools. My shop has an 800 amp 3 phase service, and all the 120v outlets are on 20 amp breakers and 12ga wire. I've got a Hobart 120v wire machine at the shop and noticed it always acted like the supply voltage was low, even when it was plugged into an outlet that's in a box that nipples right off one of the panels with a wire run of less than 3 ft. Eventually decided to replace the factory power cord on the welder since it looked like they'd used a 30 cent cord on a $600 welder. Replaced it with 12ga SO cord and a decent plug, and the welder runs like an entirely different machine. Its funny how the mfgr tells you to never run on less than a 20 amp circuit and 12 ga wire, yet they install 8 or 10 ft of cord that's marked 16 ga, and looks more like 18 ga, as if that won't cause any voltage drop since its "factory".
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