What is with this oil ZDDP content and do I need it?

A freind of mine says we need to use an oil with higher ZDDP content in our old cars. Something about lesser amounts of ZDDP causing older engine cam shaft wear.

 

Got a new cam the other day and the instructions said the same thing, use some kind of additive or the cam will go flat, forgot what they said to use. I got to check with my old boss they run a petroleum distribution place and know about the additives and such.

 

Maybe just try a search for ZDDP. There's been at least a thread a week for at least a year. The quick answer. zinc is an anti-wear additive. They've been taking it out of oils.

 

Click here www.zddplus.com great reading on the oil dilema. Call them if you have further questions - they are car people helping car people. They are an Alliance Vendor here.

 

I wiped out a cam a few months ago. Had maybe 200 miles on a brand new motor and rounded off a lobe. All other lobes had pitting on 'em. Trashed a lifter along with it. Was told it was because I wasnt using an addative or an oil like Rotella that still has the additives needed.

 

Even Rotella is pulling it out. The EPA is giving "credits" to car manufacturers for early implementation of new standards for catalytic converter life. They want them to last 150,000 miles. The manufacturers have pressed the oil companies to remove substances from motor oils that would shorten the service life, including the proven EP (exteme pressure) additive ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate).
ZDDP has been an important additive to engine oils for over 70 years, and has an excellent track record at protecting the sliding metal-to-metal cam lifter interface. ZDDP protects by creating a film on cams and flat lifter contact points in response to extreme pressure and heat at contact point. The film of zinc and phosphorus compounds provides a sacrificial wear surface protecting the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear.
I have it in my flatty with break-in oil now, as I just re-built it. I'll be grabbing some to add each time. Wayne P.

 

yes, you need ZDDP

get some ZDDPlus from the alliance vendor as already suggested, put it in you motor , and sleep easy. that's what i do

 

Just buy diesel oil, Rotella T, Delo, etc. Even the reduced formula has more ZDDP than you need.

 

I looked at the back of the STP bottle today when I was in a parts store, and it says, "contains ZDDP". It doesn't say how much.

 

For the most part the ZDDP in Rotella is gone in numbers needed for older engines. Pay attention to the API ratings. CJ-4 rated oil supercedes the CI-4, CI-4 was the las one to have enough ZDDP in it. It has been discussed that 1200 ppm is where we need to be. The CJ-4 rated oil is supposed to have "NO MORE" than 1000 ppm.

Like I said this has been covered a lot, we get a thread every week or so.

 

I talked to a Valvoline oil guy yesterday at the Gator Nationals and he said their 20W50 racing oil still has it. Part # is 211 and can be got at Wally World. Here's the stuff he said to use. He said the problem with Rotella or other diesel oils were that they were extremely high in detergents and low in anti-foaming stuff because a diesel just doesn't make the revs to foam oil very much. Now was this a sales pitch or what? Who knows? Sounded good to me.

 

shell rotella , racing oils , redline (but not for breakin) . steve

 

There was a huge discusion about this just a year ago. At that time, I called the lab at the place where Shell, Pennsoil, and Quaker State are packaged. They are all the same product. The recommendation was for no less than 1000 PPm zinc in the motor oil for older flat tappet engines. At that time, Rotella 15W40, and whatever the Quaker Staste and Pennsoil prodects are called, contained 1100 to 1350 PPM zinc. I use the Rotella product because it is easy for me to find where I live. I run a flathead and a Y block and have had no problems.

 

While Sam's Club still had it, I loaded up on enough Mobil Delvac 15w-40, CI-4, to last me for several years at the rate I drive my flathead '40. Not sure if the removal of ZDDP is just an issue for breaking in newly built engines, or it applies to all flat tappet engines, but figure it can't hurt to use it. Hopefully, by the time I run through my supply, the issue will be resolved.

 

The Rotella T CJ-4 oil has 1133 ppm of zinc. The CI-4 has more. As a basemark, Pennzoil 10w40 (1980's vintage) had 547 ppm of Zinc. So you can see even the reduced formula diesel has more (twice as much) zinc than a very popular oil back in the day. If you don't believe me, go to www.ctci.org, click on Gils Garage, go down to engine - oil (part 2). I also have another study which confirms this 1130 figure. The reduced formula diesel should be more than adequate for our flat tappet engines.

As ann additional note, any oil that has a rating over 40 viscosity is supposed to have the old measure of ZDDP. Therefore, any 10w40 or 20w/50 should be ok despite the SM rating. This is from a very respected engine builder of YBlocks. The Castrol GTX 20w/50 is supposed to have 1422 ppm (has SM ) rating.

Personally, I will stick with Rotella T.

 

Just a couple of things...

The CJ-4 spec reads no more than 1000 ppm.

You are quoting a study that is 2 years old. And they are pulling from a magazine article that is 3 years old. These specs have been changing as time goes, as a matter of fact they are set to reduce again the end of the year.

"any oil that has a rating over 40 viscosity is supposed to have the old measure of ZDDP" where did you pull that one from? I've read the API specs that determine this, no where does it say that....

 

from,,

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185886&highlight=tricknology&page=3

(Bob, who is now retired, was one of GM's Top lubrication engineers)

Engine Oil Mythology
Bob Olree
GMPT – Fuels & Lubes

Myths are ill-founded beliefs held uncritically by interested groups. Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. One was that the only good oils were oils made from “Pure Pennsylvania Crude Oil.” This one got started before the Second World War when engine oil was crude oil with very minimal refining, and crude oil from Pennsylvania made better engine oil than Texas or California crude. With modern refining, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

The next myth was that “modern” detergent engine oils were bad for older engines. This one got started after the Second World War, when the government no longer needed all the detergent oil for the war effort, and it hit the market as Heavy-Duty oil. These new detergent oils gave the pre-war cars, which had been driven way past their normal life and were full of sludge and deposits, a massive enema. In some cases bad things happened such as increased oil consumption – the piston rings were completely worn out and the massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high and horrendous oil consumption. If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, this myth never would have started.

Amazingly there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently it takes about 75 years for an oil myth to die.

Then there is the myth that new engines will not break-in on synthetic oils. Apparently there was an aircraft engine manufacturer who once put out a bulletin to this effect. Clearly the thousands and thousands of cars filled with Mobil 1 as factory-fill, which have broke-in quite well, should have put this one to rest. However this one is only 40 years old, so it has another 35 years to live.

All of these myths have a common theme; newer oils are bad. And this brings us to the latest myth – new “Starburst”/ API SM engine oils are bad for older cars because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. This one has gotten big play in the antique and collector car press lately. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth we need to look at the history of ZDP usage in engine oil.

ZDP has been used for over 60 years as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability. Unfortunately, ZDP contains phosphorus, and phosphorus is a poison for automotive catalysts. For this reason ZDP levels have been reduced by about 35% over the last 10-15 years down to a maximum of 0.08% for “Starburst”/API SM oils.

Zinc dithiophosphate was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Starting in 1942, a Chevrolet Stovebolt engine with aftermarket copper/lead insert bearing connecting rods was the standard oil test . The insert bearings were weighed before and after test for weight loss due to corrosion. The phosphorus levels of oils that passed the test were in the 0.03% range.

In the mid 1950s Oldsmobile got in a horsepower war with its Rocket engine against the Chrysler Hemi. Both companies went to high-lift camshafts and both got into camshaft scuffing and wear problems very fast. There were three solutions. Better camshaft and lifter metallurgy, phosphating the camshaft, and increasing the phosphorus level from ZDP up to the 0.08% range. Another outcome was a battery of industry wide “Sequence” oil tests. Two of theses tests were valve-train scuffing/wear tests.

Knowing that this higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, some oil companies dumped even more in thinking that they were offering the customer even more protection. However it was soon learned that while going above something like 0.14% phosphorus might decrease break-in scuffing, it increased longer term wear. At about 0.20% phosphorus the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

Later in the 1970s, the ZDP level was pushed up to the 0.10% phosphorus range as it was a cheap and effective antioxidant, and increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in Cadillacs pulling Airstream trailers from thickening to the point of not pumping. Recently, the need for this higher level of ZDP for protecting the oil from thickening has been greatly reduced with the introduction of more modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history, now getting back to the myth that “Starburst/API SM oils are no good for older cars. The argument put forth by the myth believers is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.


The “Starburst”/API SM oil standards were developed by a group of OEM, oil additive company, and oil company experts. When developing any new engine oil standard the issue of “backward compatibility” always comes up, and indeed the group of experts spent a lot of time researching this issue. Various oil and additive companies ran “no harm” tests on older cars with the new oils. No problems were uncovered.

The new specification contains two valve-train wear tests. One is the Sequence IVA Test which tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a 2.4L Nissan single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger followers. The wear limits were tightened from the previous oil specification which contained a phosphorus limit of 0.10%. The second is the Sequence IIIG Test which evaluates cam and lifter wear. A current production GM Powertrain 3.8L engine with the valve train replaced with a flat tappet system similar to those used in the 1980s is used. The only reason that this test engine uses this older valve train design is to insure that older engines are protected. All “Starburst”/API SM oil formulations must pass these two tests.

In addition to the protection offered by these two valvetrain wear tests and the new testing which was conducted on the formulations containing lower levels of ZDP, a review of the knowledge gained over the years in developing previous categories also indicates that no problem should be expected. The new “Starburst”/API SM oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. They do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that is because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants that were not commercially available in the 1960s.

The oil’s ZDP level is only one factor in determining the life of an older camshaft or a new aftermarket camshaft. Most of the anecdotal reports of camshaft failures attributed to the newer oils appear to be with aftermarket camshafts. Breaking in extremely aggressive aftermarket camshafts has always been problem. The legendary Smokey Yunick wrote that his solution to the problem was to buy multiple camshafts and simply try breaking them in until he found one that survived break-in without scuffing.


Despite the pains taken in developing special flat tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that “new oils will wear out older engines.” Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will take about 75 years for this one to die also.


February 13, 2007

 

Please also see this link, it has another artical in the last half of the first post,,,

The following is from a presentation Bob gave to a classic car club.

Are Newer Engine Oils Really Bad for Older Cars?

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/engine-drivetrain/16019-engine-oil-mythology-debunked-zdp-content.html

 

Too much ZDP is not good.

Yes, use a good break in oil additive when the cam is new (Like the OLD GM EOS) but Once the cam is broke in do you really need all that ZDP?

"Knowing that this higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, some oil companies dumped even more in thinking that they were offering the customer even more protection. However it was soon learned that while going above something like 0.14% phosphorus might decrease break-in scuffing, it increased longer term wear. At about 0.20% phosphorus the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."


and also roller lifter cams do not require a lot of ZDP.

 

You either know your stuff or you have mastered the art of BSing. Either way, very impressive. I'll place my vote on the knowledge part.

 

yep, but tests have determined that what a flat tappet engine needs is about 1200ppm. Seems a bunch of people want to keep shouting Rotella, read the spec, see when the different parts have gone into effect.

 

Am I the only one that thinks this is totally confusing. I have built a 355, flat tappet, motor for my daughter's 69 Camaro. She will take care of however I tell her to. So, what do I break it in with; Rotella, Valvoline Racing oil, diesel oil? Should I add STP or Lucas additive to the break-in period? What about after the break-in period, should I add STP or Lucas oil additive to the oil?
I am not totally convinced that modern oils are OK for older flat tappet engines. I don't know about the rest of you but I have flattened two cams in my cabriolet in the last ten years. This is after 35 years prior of never flattening a cam.
So what would eveyone recommend for her motor? It is a fresh 355, dished pistons, Vortec heads, Comp Cams hi-torque 4x4 cam ( approx 218 dur at .050, .480 lift).

 

Joe Gibbs Break-In oil then Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 Racing Oil . I lost a fresh motor last summer in my '32 5W and have about 1000 on the new one now using these products . Talked to Isky , I have a solid lifter Isky cam , this is what they said to use.............Z.

 

Valvoline racing oil, straight 40, or 20 w 50.

 

I have two engines that prove the point of ZDDP is needed.. my 1953 Mercury engine that has the cam broken in 5 places and trashed every internal component, and my 1965 Thunderbird 390 engine that also broke the cam and sent parts out the side of the block. hmmm two in one year? I never raced either one and babied them...

Spike

 

I spoke with the rep from Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil at the Hot Rod & Restoration trade show just last Friday. He told me Joe Gibbs 10w-30 and 15w-50 oil has the levels of ZDP that we need. He told me it's also good for engines that only see occasional non-daily use, like a lot of our cars.

Anyway, you can check it out for yourself:

http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html

 

Zman - I respect what your saying, but I think you are wrong. Oil back in the day didn't have as much ZDDP as what you say is needed and those engine survived. The study by Gil Baumgartner shows this.

I don't know where you got the "2 year old study" thing as the study was done only within the last year as far as I know.

There was a thread on the HAMB posted around 11/10/07 (220975??)which gave out specs on many brands of oil which back up my figures, both on the Rotella CJ and the Castrol 20/50. If there was a significant change I would assume there would be a change in the designation such as the change from CI to CJ.

 

Interesting so far.. we have the guys that say we need more than 1200,,and the guy that says we are fine using todays oils. What to believe?

The Valvoline guys might have the answer,,,go to this page http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf and read the 2008 Valvoline bulletin about the "zinc" controversy,,they even have an 800 phone number to their tech hotline so you can ask how much zinc and other questions.

They state that their VR1 Racing oil has 75% higher than SM engine oil plus other balanced additives designed to work in racing and street applications and that it will protect our older engines. They also state that it is in all their racing grades even 10w-30 (the one I will be using in my '66 poncho with only 33.000 miles).

 

I wish they would tell you the ppm, the SM spec puts it at 600-800 ppm, so 75% more than that puts it at 1050-1400 ppm. Smack dab in the middle of that is where we want to be.

 

The Valvoline flyer is not specific on zinc content, so I called Valvoline Tech last week to get a reading.

I have been using Valvoline's conventional premium 10W-40 oil in a stroker SBC after breaking in the cam with a break-in lube. the engine has a Comp Cams flat tappet cam, solid lifters, Edelbrock heads and racing valve springs. Only with the last recent oil change did I add a ZDDP supplement -- after reading the concerns about lack of zinc. So far ~2000 miles with no issues.

The Tech guy says the conventional premium oil contains 800ppm which he believes is more than adequate for flat-tappet protection. He also said that each viscosity series of the VR1 oil contains 1300ppm. The VR1 oil is not that much more expensive than the conventional oil, so considering the added cost of the ZDDP additive I will switch to VR1 next oil change. The Tech guy leans toward the 10W-30 oil for reduced drag in a performance engine, but I'm going to try the 20W-50 first to see how oil pressure behaves.