what made chrysler 300 so hot??

Weasel's right that the big Facels used Chrysler V-8s, and add DeSotos (earliest, beginning '54). You're also on the track of why they went out of business, too. They ventured into making sports models with under-powered engines. They didn't sell enough units to pull their weight and sapped all the company's assets. Facel sputtered out for good after a pathetic '64 model.

 

The little Facels - Facellias, Facel III and Facel 6 used Weslake designed twin cam, Volvo 4 cyl. and Austin Healey engines respectively. They weighed almost as much as the big Facels - tanks - and were real slugs. But time to get back on track with the Chrysler 300s...

 

All Hemi powered Facels were given the FV designation with the exception of the FV3B which used the Dodge poly motor. The RB 361/383 cars were designated as a HK 500. Looked similar on the outside but major internal differences . Chrysler also supplied all the automatic transmissions and the rear differentials were Salisbury which evolved into the Spicer/Dana s of today.

 

HP ratings Read somewhere that the 2 bl 331s were rated @ 180 but were actually 200 HP. Seems that in '51 200 was a lot of HP & Chrysler didn't want to scare the Elderly types who are the main customers of Chr branded cars.

 

George, you are so right. Though engineers in ALL Mopar divisions were proud as punch of the Hemis, they had to still watch MARKET impressions. Witness that fender trim on ALL early Hemi cars only says V8, definitely NOT Hemi. The CAR CROWD could get all the performance facts, but the divisions didn't push that angle too hard to the general car-buying public.

Bottom line: I agree that Chrysler, DeSoto and Doge all downplayed horsepower ratings, probably for marketing reasons and to stay out of line-of-fire from insurance companies. We all know that car companies -- even back then -- tried to steer clear of government intervention AND avoid any negative press. SAFETY, it seems, can be a dangerous word! You want to avoid being accused of making an unsafe product, fer sur. When Preston Tucker was building the car of the future, he wouldn't let his engineers install seatbelt, lest it raise the mental image of crashing, or the suggestion that his car might be in ome way unsafe (too fast?).

The '54 331 with 2-barrel could get 195 horse, but I don't know what rpm they used to achieve that. With 4-barrel, the 331 achieved 250-horse by '55. If my 291 DeS 4-barrel ran 200 hp and 112 brand new, I'm sure the Chrysler with longer stroke had better hp and top speed.

"TheHemi.Com" is a super site with a ton of comparative data. Actually, awesome. I've been in so many conversations where guys talk BS, but THIS site gives hard facts that would settle a lot of arguments. I could spend hours poring over this shit. Take a gander, buddy, if you haven't already.

 

With the renewed interest in this 7 month old thread, I was really hoping that the HAMBs resident Chrysler 300 expert: StillOutThere, would have chimed in by now ... Wayne are you listening?

Edit: PM sent!

 

Do you mean the infamous, '39 Ford driving Mr. Graefen?

 

I'm betting somebody will give him a call soon as he gets home from work!

WHAT a unique car the early 300 was! And the later ones with 413s were no slouches, either. Like the Imperial, you really have to appreciate what Chrysler was trying to do with the 300. In both cases, it's sad that they couldn't move more units and, thus, had to eventually (generally speaking by the late '60s) water down the 300 and Imperial concepts from the grand cars they were in the early days. As an example, I seem to remember the 300 and Imperials of '69 and '70. Beautiful cars but pretty much re-badged, gussied-up New Yorkers, for my money. That's no slam, either, since we had 3 '69 NYs in my family, and I still have (and treasure) the dark blue 4DH. I may be a F---ing New Guy to the HAMB, but my love of MOPARs is in my blood. -- Jimi'sHemi291

 

Oh WOW, a lot going on in this thread which I didn't realize had updated since back in January when it got started. "Resident 300 expert" Huh? I may have big Texan boots but not sure I fill THOSE. Yes, I own three 300 Letter Cars, one of them originally had Carl Kiekhaefer's name on its title (attached "as found" - now in restoration) and another has the 400HP w/ Pont-a-Moussson 4spd drivetrain package. But right now I gotta get ready for church and I'll comment more this afternoon.

 

Wow-ee, OutThere! Keikhaeafer's name on the title! Whoo! I was in awe when I found it on an outboard engine. Shit fire and save matches! '55 or '56? Cana-cana see a pic? Sheesh, this is the most fun site I've seen on the 'net. COOL bunch of car-crazies!!! BTW, I'm an FNG, too, and I only have one '55 Fireflite. I suppose I'll get to Grenade Inspector or something about, oh, the 22nd Century. LOL. -- Jimi'sHemi291

 

jimi -- that '57 300C in the thumbnail above your post is one of three "Road America competition models" that Kiekhaefer purchased and played with giving consideration to the '57 NASCAR events both on tracks including the last of the road race events NASCAR ran that spring and the Daytona Speed Weeks. I found it like that in a garage in Anaheim, CA. I wasn't real interested until the seller said "Come into my kitchen and I'll show you my personal correspondence before Carl Kiekhaefer died." OH, REALLY!

 

I have to say overall y'all have been pretty well covering the Chrysler 300 but now that Todd Hemi32 has invited me to comment I'm going to suggest you watch at least the first explanation on video by Bob Roger, Chrysler Chief Engineer back in the day who is credited with being the idea man behind the Chrysler 300. Its here on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhFbRDomsQ0 2nd-4th parts also worthwhile if you are interested.

Arguably the Hemi idea seed came when Chrysler built the V16 Hemi 2500HP aircraft engine for the P-47 Thunderbolt Fighter planes in WWII.

BUT, the car application really started when Lee Petty, yes, "the King's" father, won his first NASCAR race in a '49 Plymouth business coupe and kept racing other Plymouths and Dodges in the early '50s. The Pettys realized they could swap big Chrysler and Imperial suspension components and brakes and axles into their Plyms and Dodges and have very heavy duty light weight cars. Along came the Chrysler Saratoga with its 331 hemi in 1951 and Carl Kiekhaefer took a couple of those down to the toughest road race in the world, the Carrera Panamericana (Mexican Road Race) and was VERY impressive. He returned in '52 running 140 mph on the straightaways (documented!) before brake problems. Throughout this same time Briggs Cunningham was working with Chrysler engineers regarding particularly their induction and valve train in the hemi and he was racing in Europe. There are several other HAMB thread comments and photos regarding his cars and 4-carb intake systems.

Credit indeed should go to what was going on in Chrysler's engine labs. There were a bunch of real motor heads down there. The Chrysler Institute of Engineering, begun in 1931, had a bunch of extremely dedicated guys and the young talent enlisted after the war was really sharp. I have spoken with a graduate from around 1950 whose eyes STILL light up today when talking about seeing an experimental Hemi on the dyno in the lab exceed THREE HUNDRED HORSEPOWER for the very first time in about 1951. That may be nothing for us today but let a little perspective sink in this was six decades ago and the production engine was putting out an ASTOUNDING (!) 180 HP.

As so often happens in Detroit, there is an immediate predecessor trial idea car to "the legend" car. In the case of the legend Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, the trial was the '53-54 New Yorker Heavy Duty Pan America race car built either for AAA and NASCAR racing or for the Mexican Road Race. Probably about a dozen of those cars were assembled. Kiekhaefer bought and raced four or five of them in Mexico. As previously mentioned up this thread, Lee Petty won the '54 NASCAR points championship in one of these cars. And perhaps the most special of those cars still exists. I purchased it for a friend after it had been in storage outside Detroit since 1958. Read the story of the grandaddy of the Chrysler 300s at http://www.thehemi.com/notable.php?id=011 .

So WHAT MADE THE 300 SO HOT? Answer the question!!!
In one word: The Hemi. I don't have to tell y'all that the engineering of the Hemi combustion chamber simply is the most efficient design and that variations of it continue to be used today. The Hemi is what Chrysler went back to to win again in '64 and it was what they went back to again in what '03(?) when they needed something to boost sales and now had new engineering and computers to increase production effiiciencies. In the original Letter Cars, add some aggressive cams for the day (through early '57 production), forged crankshafts, hardened exhaust seats standard, axle ratios to suit race tracks from 3.08 to 6.17 (!), and an extremely meticulous hard-headed progressive German car enthusiast multi-millionaire promoter in Carl Kiekhaefer who would do ANYTHING to win.
Beyond the Hemi and Carl, the 300 race car hardtops were placed on to convertible frames to add rigidity, were given Imperial hubs and drums (there's Lee Petty!) to get bigger brakes and bearings, and had H.D. springs front and rear.
It should be noted that Kiekhaefer in his Mercury Outboard racing years and auto racing (AAA and NASCAR and some sports cars) went through innumerable tear downs and was NEVER found to have EVER infringed upon ANY rule.

I'm attaching a pic of the companion Road America '57 car to mine during very early race prep at Plant 6, the "race car plant", in Fond du Lac, WI.

 

Wayne (StillOutThere) ... Great stuff ... Thanks for posting!

... and for convenience sake:

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Oh, and by the way, another HAMBer said he had a mag that showed the Daytona Time Trials when the Adventurer showed up the 354 as being in 1957. The 341 dual-4 Adventurer was a late-premiering model for '56 [more on that], so I can truly imagine that it wasn't included in Daytona time trials in early '56, maybe.

By spring '57, Chrysler would have been running the 392, am I right? I can't imagine that Chrysler would have still been running time trials in early '57 with the '56 354 when they had the 392 roaring to go. The only doubt I have is that -- in 1957 -- how a 341 Adventurer could show up a 392 Chrysler 300, especially with both cars equipped with dual fours, eh?

Until I am convinced otherwise, I stand by my belief & readings that the hi-deck DeS of '56 outstripped the final ('56) 354 lo-deck Chrysler Hemi. If there's hard evidence in the historical record, please, somebody, clear this up. It's a matter of record, not what one rodder like, VS what another rodder likes. I believe the long-stroke (3.8-inch) hi-deck DeS beat the the Chrysler, if only for ONE time.

My point? I love DeSotos, and I think this was ONE time DeSoto beat the parent company, before being told to retire from the competition. Tell me I am dead wrong. I'll shut up when I see the evidence, versus just opinion and Chrysler VS DeSoto preference. No offense. Show me the facts.

 

Man, oh man, OUtThere! That is HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow, come into my KITCHEN? This is cooler than NASCAR, my friend. -- Jimi

 

Jee-Whiz, I am so excited I haven't even read EVERYTHING you've already posted, buddy! I groawked it and got the impression that maybe early factory EXPERIMENTS may have been involved, and the reports I keep reading were NOT the official Daytona time trials? I CAN BUY THIS SCENARIO.

 

Again, without having gotten all the way through your post, buddy, you are so right. ONCE STODGY OLD KT KELLER saw the necessity of making a marketable V*, he went to the smart guys who were working on tank and aircraft engines during the war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! His ONLY edict to the enthusiastic engineers was that a marketable Hemi had to be SMOOTH running (for the old customer constituency, obviously) AND run economically on regular gas.

The engineers complied, AND they still out-performed the caddy 331 and the Olds "Rocket" 88 !!!! HELL OF A START BACK IN '51!!!! Holy shit. Talk about hitting a homerun, eh?

 

As far as the PanAmerica and Briggs Cunningham's ventures, they were SURE AS HELL visible testament to the POTENTIENTIAL of this heavy-ass, and WIDE eingine, even on road tracks! Whoa. Man do I love the history and derivation of what went into "The Working man's Hotrod."

 

The G-D shame is that Henry Kaiser had the same research resources that Keller at Chrysler did, in that Joe washington Frazer KNEW from his pre-wat time at Graham-Paige that a G-P engineer had a VIABle V-* designe, JUST SITTING ON THE F---ING shelf! Had Kaiser had the judgement of stogy old Keller, then we'd robably still have Kaiser vehicle (new) on the road today. One has to give credit to Keller (WP's hand-picked successor) for having the good sense toe LISTEN to good people in his stable!

Anywho, the Hemi helped save Chrysler, DeSoto, Dodge and Plymouth, all the way throug the '50s.

 

What about the early Dodge red ram hemis Are they worth anything? I almost had one and I should try to get it again if the price is right. I think it was a 53 or 54 Royal

 

BTW, that Graham-Paige V8 design appeared in nashes and AMCs (Jeeps, too?) as late as 1973 or so. Few peope, by then, would have given a second's thought to the G-P engineer who had this V8 design ready BEFORE WWII. Funny how reality works, eh?

 

As far as the Dodge HEMIs, the only neg I have ever heard is that the earliest ones came without a vibrbration damper, which could reult in crank breakage under higher REVs. Other than THAT (which, of course, can be fixed once you know this weakness in design), I'd be happy to have even a 241 ("Baby Hemi) to love and hold, eh? A Hemi is a freaggin Hemi. So much potential.

 

Oh, and when you look at the comparative bores and strokes that Chrysler let their DIVISIONs use through the 1950s, Dodge had shit that could hold its own. If I recollect, though, Chrysler let Dodge use the 354 (!) in '57, right) Dodge trucks, because they had customer complaints to dealers about anemic performance(huh?). Well, customers are always customers --- picky, picky, picky, maybe like us HAMBers?

 

BTW, FlatheadFever, if that was a 315, tell me the directions from Ohi to Nova Scotia. I'd go get it my self, if it turns.

 

Hey, gang, I just realized I'm a NEWBIE, not a fucking new guy any more. What the fuck just happened?

 

Dudes, I've been so damn busy since the weather warmed up (don't wanna go into the details, other than proud parents gaining a son-in-law and youngest daughter graduating from high school), I really haven't had the TIME to sift thorouhg my extra '55/'56 DeSot stuff. I salted it all away when junkyards still had DeSotos, and I now know I won't EVER need it all. I'll post some of this stuff on "PAY IT FORWARD" soon as I can get into that garage. Meantime, I have big pistons for the 330 project I started into HAMB with, but I sure could use an original 4-B intake for the 300. Jesus, guys, my dad's ran lie a stripped-ass-ape with a TWO-barrel! It always left me wondering what this engine is capable of, especially on a budget????

 

OK, somebody's just gonna tell me to shut the fuck up here, I can FEEL it coming on. Hell, I'm Irish. My excuse. Sticking to it.

 

The announcement date of the '57 300C was Dec. 8, '56, whereas the rest of the '57 Chryslers had already become available Oct. 30 so as in previous years, Chrysler made the public wait anxiously for the high performance Letter Cars but made them available in plenty of time for Speed Weeks early February in Daytona. Gotta have time to test and tune ya know! Especially the new 390 HP stick shift 392 for '57 of which 18 were eventually built. Those came with a radical cam (or could be ordered with custom grinds!) and all were recalled!
I don't have '56-57 DeSoto Daytona Speed Week participation in front of me but I do know that the 300Cs at Daytona ran slower flying miles (by 5mph) than the 300Bs had run because of the windshield eyebrows primarily but also the headlight nacelles designed to hold the 4 headlamps getting federal certification across the fifty states that year. Nevertheless 134.108mph was the C's mark for this year and books state the 300C was still "the fastest sedan on the beach" so forget the '57 DeS Adventurer.
The 300C was introduced with either the 375HP torqueflite engine or the 390HP stick shift package. To clarify, at no time in production did it ever have a the '56 354 engine.

And to clarify a comment way back up this thread, the last use of the 392 Hemi was in the 1959 Ghia bodied Imperial stretch limousines. That is sort of an accident. What really happened there is that the '59 Ghia limos are '58 Impl chassis and it took a year to build them in Italy so by the time they were done they were titled as '59s but they had the previous year's drive train and thus are powered by '58 392 Hemis.

Attaching pic of a 390HP and stick trans ready to go back into a 300C restoration.

 

O/T Dodge used 331 & 354s in trucks, Some 354 truck engines reported as late as '60.

 

Jeezy-peezie. Now i know I didn't dream this! Chrysler allowed the Imperial Division to reserve some of the 392s for the top-of-the-line Imperial South Hamptons!!! Hooray. I'm not crazy, just MOPAR-crazy!