What trans would work with an AMC 258?

This was carried over from another post.

I am in the process of picking up a 31 Willys (looks like a model A) and am trying to figure out my transmission options. I am planning on using an AMC 258 I6, and as this is not going to be a 4wd application, I need a 2wd manual trans to back it up. I was thinking 4spd, but I would consider 5 or even 3 speed setups. Now, I know jeep used a tremec 4spd, as well as a borg-warner; the engine will be a stock I6, so m***ive amounts of HP won't be an issue, and the car weighs a little more than what a model A would be. Obviously, as this will be a 2WD application, the transfer case will be eliminated and I'll need a tail shaft, hopefully a short one (the wheel base is 110 inches).

Now, I contacted Christian Hazel from JP Magazine, and he recommended I go with a ford T-18, which would bolt up to the bellhousing with no problem. He also said I should contact Novak Adaptors, as I would most likely need a special pilot bushing. The guy I spoke with at Novak thought the T-18 was overkill, and suggested I look into sourcing a T-4/5 from a camaro or a mustang. The problem is that Novak's website trashes the T-4/5 for it's weakness. Also floating around would be the idea of a T-150 but I haven't really explored that yet.

Added into the mix is the idea of an AX-15, but for that I would need to find a 2wd, 4.0 stick cherokee, and that's the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Bottom line, I want something reliable, easy to source and easy to get parts for. I also want to keep it as close to a 'true bolt-on' as possible, and would prefer a 3 or 4 speed. Since the car is similar to an A, size, length, and shifter location may become an issue.

Ideas?

 

I'd say you have done a decent amount of homework already. The T-5 (V8 version) would be fine behind a 258 I'd think. Your not going to see 400hp and they have lived up to more than that. The 258 is a very torquey, smooth motor, its what is in my Jeep CJ and I love it. Also don't know how much into AMC stuff you have looked but a 4.0 head on a 258 is worth a good increase in HP over stock. Funny you bring this up I have been considering the same thing for my "I don't think its ever going to get started" 23 T Modified project.

 

Lots of AMCs ran T4s, I have one out of a Spirit.

 

I agree the T-18 would be overkill. It's a super heavy duty ****** designed for work.
The T 4/5 should be fine.

Terry

 

Ok, if the T 4/5 would work, what would be the most common applications to use a 2wd version? Do they ALL bolt up to the 258 bellhousing, or are there variations?

 

I'm also concerned with the length of the T-4/5 and the location of the shifter.

 

I will measure my T4 tonight, shifter is at the rear but looks like a fine fit in my A

 

I've seen many a 2wd Commanche p/u with the 258 and auto or manual transmissions. I don't know what they are though, but they are out there.

 

As far as I know, all the Jeep T4/T5s had the tall skinny 'Ford' pattern on the bell housing end, so I ***ume that the 258 bell would have that pattern and you would want to start with a Mustang T5.

Mustang T5s (2004 and earlier) had the shifter back near the U joint at the very rear of the tail case. You can swap on a S10 tail housing to move the shifter forward. The rare Chevette tail case or the 2005+ V6 Mustang tail also have the forward shifter location and are also shorter than the older Mustang / S10 tail.

Also see Flat Ernie's T5 article.

As far as T4/T5 strength... I have seen Jeep guys on the web rank as weak trannies that have given very good service in all but the most powerful street cars. Remember the Jeep guys are looking at them for rock crawling, which is way different than highway cruising or racing.

That is all i think I know.

Piper106

 

Novak trashes the T4/T5 for 4WD applications where everyone is converting to the NV4500 for strength. You will be more than fine with a T5 behind a Jeep 6.

Any of the T5 should work - as mentioned, I believe Jeep uses Ford pattern, so a Mustang T5 with S10 tailhousing/topcover adapted on (see Tech pages) will work well.

 

If you mean the cherokee-based pickups, according to wikipedia they would have been all 4.0s and ax-15s in that combo. Now, the J series pickups before that with the wagoneer front ends on them, they could have used something else, but good luck finding one, and gooder luck replacing it.

 

Ugh, I read a bunch of it, now I have a headache. Here's what I'm going to do, I'm going to take a good look around and see what I can find already complete in the yards. AMC used the 232 and the 258 in their auto line, and I'm sure a bunch of stick cars were built, but if I can find one is another question. Another option is a j truck, again, if I can find one, or a spirit/pacer/etc. If nothing turns up, it'll be back to the drawing board and we'll look at swapping top covers and all that.

 

I just put a s-10 t-5 in my t-roadster. It's got a 90 inch wheelbase. the driveshaft is about 16 inches long. It's fine. A Mustang t-5 is the same lenght as the s-10, I think. OAL. With the rear shifter location maybe you could do the backwards handle thing like shellby did with the original Cobra's.

And I don't think your'e gonna kill a T-5. unless it's already garbage.

But I quess that the more people think that they are NG, the less demand=the cheaper for us.


Frank

 

Well, you can search for a '93-94 S10 T5 - some of the '93 and all of the '94 (supposedly) are Ford pattern, but you'll have to contend with electronic speedo issues...

 

My T4 is 15 1/2 from the front face to the center of the shifter. It does have the Ford tyoe bolt pattern but the input shaft is GM spline (AMC used GM Iron Dukes in some cars)

 

Electronic speedo is not an option

 

Maybe I should rethink the T-18...
*Cheap
*Easy to find
*Reliable
*A 99% bolt-on
*Top loader design
*Compact, narrow case

 

I would not run that truck ******. Too clunky.

 

Alright, let's look into 3spds then. What's out there? What about a different bellhousing?

 

Here's a list of jeep manuals used over the years

• Borg-Warner T-96 three-speed
• Borg-Warner T-85 three-speed
• Borg-Warner T-10 four-speed
• Borg-Warner T-14 three-speed
• Borg-Warner HR-1 four-speed synchronized unit used with the 121-4.
• Borg-Warner SR-4 four-speed synchronized unit used with the AMC 6 cylinder and 304 V8 engines.
• Borg-Warner T-4 and T-5 four and five speed units used from 1982 onwards.
• Tremec 150T three-speed

 

the jeeps also used the t-176,real good little ******,starting to get hard to find .also came in mid 80s ford pu .mainly behind straight 6... i would stay away from the t-18.although its a good TRUCK ******.(granny 1st) heavy...

 

The T-176 might work - I'm reading up on it now. Top loader design, cast aluminum, easy to rebuild, 23 spline count... Looking good so far
I can't seem to find any info on ford apps though. What years and models did it come in? Can I scavenge a tailshaft from another trans for 2wd operation?

 

Ford T-176? I'm confused - why do you want that?

Don't know of any T-176 2WD applications. T-176 shifter tower/top plate can be put onto a Ford toploader (60s 4-spd or 80s 3+OD) with minor work. There are some similar 3-spd swaps as well.


You seem to be more concerned with what will bolt up easiest vs what will be the best ****** for your application though...

It's unclear whether or not you currently have a Jeep 258 right now. If not, why do you want to use it? It will be very long compared to the original 4-cyl most Willys came with (and long than virtually any V8 you can scrounge up), so you're going to have all kinds of major issues fitting this engine to this car - why are you so averse to modifying a ****** (which is so simple a caveman could do it )?

 

Ok, several questions and several answers.

I'm searching for ford use of the T-176 and nothing is turning up, so did they actually use it as a 2wd ******? Not looking good so far. Even if they used it for 2-3 years, it may be near impossible to find one in the bone yards.

Am I trying to take the easiest route? Well, yes. I'm trying to keep this low budget, and adaptor kits and the like always cost $$. Transmissions are still a bit of voodoo for me, so I do not want to get into modifications. Mods, in the end, always wind up being a PITA anyway. As I said, I'm pretty much looking for a bolt-on.

The willys origially came with (and still has) a straight six motor. I wanted to use the 258 for several reasons, a**** them the fact that 258s are literally everywhere, run forever, and they fall into the category of using willys/AMC/jeep parts to upgrade the car. I also do not want to alter the hood sides in any way, so I'm thinking straight six. I would not be adverse to using a 232, but I think they are the same size as the 258, so I'm not gaining anything there.

In the end, I may have no choice other than to modify the trans, but I'd rather not.

 

I know the T-176 came in later 1970's jeeps like 1976 to 1981 or so. The problem with findin them is alot of guys used the top shifter for earlier top loaders. A T-150 has been used for far longer cheaper and is a bolt on to your 258. They used them 1972 to mid 80's jeeps,F-150-100 trucks and I think you would be able to pick one up for a few hundred bucks. Another option is a early bronco trans but it would be a column shift and would have to get a side shifter adapter if the Three on the tree wasn't a option?! James Duff , Tom's and a few other are making the Hurst shifter and rods, it's really a Hurst master shifter with a bunch of cheap brackets. I can help you if you go that route with some patterns.
As FlatErnie had said a mid 80's early 90's trans out of a F-150 2 wheel drive would work great. It's a 3+OD four speed with a correct bell housing pattern. I'm putting one in a rod and will let you know the draw backs or pluses in a few weeks........

 

John, 'a mid 80's early 90's trans out of a F-150 2 wheel drive ,' what trans would that be?

The t-150 looks like a good option, it's a top loader, it only weighs 85 lbs, and gearing is 2.99, 1.75, 1. And this was used in ford pickups, correct? If so, I think we have a winner.

 

T-150 anyone? I'm having a hard time finding any ford applications listed

 

my 83 cj-7 had a t-176. about the trucks .cant remember the years .but had a few come through my shop.every one i saw was a straight 6 plan jane truck,(2wd)also remember reading about it in a 4x4 magazine.

 

Here is some HAMB threads on Inline 6's, AMC 4.0 and 258,

Maybe get a Jeep Cherokee 2 wheel drive pickup truck/ SUV donar car for the front axel (It has a beam front axle with disc brakes), steering system, 6 cylinder engine, clutch, Hyd. throw out bearing system, 5 speed trans, drive shaft and rear axle, springs, and brakes.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179809&highlight

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183768&highlight

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1997-to-2001-jeep-cherokee.htm

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1997-to-2001-jeep-cherokee-4.htm

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/used-jeep-prices-reviews.htm

 

MANY Cherokees came in 2 wheel drive versions with 5 speed sticks,,,

here are some Jeep tech info links

http://www.jeeptech.com/

http://www.jeeptech.com/models/xj.htm

AX-15 5 speed stick trans

http://www.jeeptech.com/trans/ax15.html

get the 2 wheel drive version from a cherokee.,,,get the whole car as a donar.