History What was the FIRST chopped 1949-50 MERCURY

I didn't say he remembers everything but Jeff continually claims that George intentionally lied about the pictures of Jerry's car to prove that Sam's was chopped first when it wasn't. I was pointing out instances of things George said that would have no relevance to proving anything just things that were said and they tend to lean towards Sam's car being cut first. Actually the quote you just posted does as well if it actually took months to get the chops right then there is no way Jerry's car was chopped first.

As Rik mentioned above there were quite a few mistakes made in those books when identifying pictures does that mean George lied about every one? Does it mean nothing he has said is believable?

I just find it funny how everything Jerry is quoted as saying seems to be taken as gospel even when huge discrepencies like whether he cut the top of his car at home (which he claimed himself unsolicited and is obviously not true) are written off as oh he just got mixed up but George mislabelling one photo makes everything he says a lie. It is very convinient when trying to prove ones point.

 

Wow you really have me pinned now. I like how I mention one car that was either "mixed up or forgot about" in the Barris books and you come twist it to make it sound like I said "we cant believe any of what George said.All the writing in those books is not true" Dude that is so fuckin funny to me,I really think you have a talent for twisting shit around.I mention one car and now it just grows to me saying ITS ALL A LIE!! .....Pure Comedy!! As far as the 51 oakland roadster show picture goes and you quoting what I said before that...... Research changes when new key items are found and that was a key item.So by you quoting me, you have proven me wrong on all points that I have ever brought up on this topic,you have done a great job on this story I really want to thank you.

I do have a question that needs some attention by such a great detective such as yourself.(K13) As we all know you tried to debate and split every hair you could in the Montebello thread when we were all talking about it.........how come you never debated or argued with the issue after it came out in the TRJ Marcia Campbell story ???

 

Jeff I love the fact that you take everything I print as a persoanl attack on you. I was responding to Bickford. I mentioned you because you keep claiming that George lied about the pictures. That is the only mention of you I made. Bickford used those pictures as an example of how we can't believe what George has to say. You twisted it into me claiming you said that everything George said was a lie.

As you mentioned happens new evidence and further discussion about the Montebello story changed my mind just as it changed yours about Oakland. If you read my post #138 of this thread you would have seen that I stated that it is believed the first show Jerry's car was at was Montebello. So before you start throwing sarcastic jabs around you should actually read my posts.

Oh but I forgot you are the only one that is allowed to change their mind and get away with it. My apologies I will remeber that in the future.

 

Sorry to ask something that's no doubt already noted, but who took the Jerry Quesnel pics, George or Marcia?

Theory #1
Someone might take the view that Sam's car was chopped first, because of the work done on the car and when it was sold. This theory works it backward. I still think that the amount of time it took to do Sam's car shouldn't be overstated, it's two big mods are the chop and the fadeway body line.

Theory #2
Jerry's car was done first. I believe he's on record as saying it was done first, right Jeff? Then there are pics of his car undergoing the chop, so his is documented, and... they are mistakenly attributed to being Sam's car. His car has less done to it, and it has what I consider to be a crossover chop (what do you think Rik?). I'm thinking his car was chopped based on how other pre 1949 cars were done...no? Other reason I think this was first was that someone took pics. Cameras were more rare, and film and developing it wasn't cheap. So I think the shop had Marcia take the pics of the first chop, and didn't bother taking pics of the 2nd one. That's what I think.

 

I think one of the big problems with a lot of theories being floated is that it assumes that pictures were being taken to document history which I don't think is the case. Marcia was a photographer that made her living selling photographs I am sure she wasn't under the beck and call of the Barris's shop every time they wanted pictures taken. Given that fact maybe Sam's car made such an impact at Oakland that she thought she could sell a a series of pictures to a magazine showing the chopping of the new "hot custom" and because she missed Sams car she had to use Jerry's.

 

Correction!
Marcia Campbell was not a photographer making a living selling photo's at all.
She took photo's because she loved doing that, and loved Custom Cars. She gave away the photo's she took to the owners of the cars or to the shop owner and even to magazins. All she wanted ws credits for them.

 

I agree with you actually. Was a lot of stuff done at Barris showing up in the big mags or those little books... "how to chop a Mercury... How to build a floating grille..." Hence me thinking that Marcia was asked to take pics either by Barris or by a mag. If it was the first then maybe Barris wanted the first pics to be out and about? What mag were they in and when?

 

As far as I know none of these Jerry Quesnel Merc chop photo's where ever published in any of the small or large magazines back in the 1950's. A few apeared in the Barris books as Sam's Merc. The where for the first time published as a series in TRJ issue 51.

 

Thanks for the correction Rik. I guess the point I was trying to make and may have gotten a little overly jealous with is that I don't think pictures were being taken of any of these cars back then with the thought that they would be historically significant someday.

For me until dated photographic proof is provided the time line has to be too perfect for Jerry's car to have been chopped first. He literally would have had to gotten his new plates on the 2nd or 3rd of January in 1951 and driven straight to the shop to have the work done and even if he had done that Sam's car had to have been there with work done to it for it to have made the Oakland show in February( he did not customize that whole car in a month on evenings and weekends)and you would think Marcia would have taken some pictures of that as well and she very well may have but we don't have them.

 

Another thing is if you Jerry didnt know about this big discussion about who's mercury was chopped 1st. it was asked of him and he told Jeff his was done 1st. Also if you were to ask Jack Stewart about it who's was chopped 1st. Jack would tell you it was Jerry's mercury chopped 1st. See K13.. I've see Jack a lot at different shows and have talked with him about the old days of custom. He has told me a lot and REALLY told me a lot about George. Jack told me lots of stores about George and how he was and Jack said George would be mad if he knew other new, but Jack said" i dont give a shit." Your not around these guys to ask them how things were and ask them specific questions like i have done.

K13 you do have to try to shut Jeff down after every post he puts. Ive noticed that. I have a good question for you. Where is all your proof of Sam's car being chopped 1st? Also the license plates of 1951 were given out in 1950. I did my research and talked with people from the DMV about it. They said that those plates were given out in like as early as late oct or early nov. I also talked with my family about the plates issue. I have a set of plates that were on my grandfathers car. They got there plates before 1951. If you didnt get you tags or new plates before that year. You would of got a ticket for it.

 

Hmmm so Marcia's pics could have been taken just because she was around... Though she was able to chronicle that chop. I think it was scheduled. Or she hung around there a lot.

 

I was told by three different license plate collectors that it was written into the DMV code in the 50's that you had between January 1st until January 31st (correction they had until Feb 4th) to get your new plates and that none of them were released before the 1st of January. I believe them because they have absolutely no stake in this and had no idea why I was asking about when plates were issued and this is their passion so I am sure they have researched the history of license plates as much or more than we have customs.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9coQNfLGKbQ&feature=player_profilepage

 

Well here is Mr.Jack Stewart who remains real good friends with Geoarge Barris to this day and actually still hangs out with him.This was shot last year at the Del Mar show.I dont really see why Jack would make this up but im sure there will be plenty of reasons why Jack Stewart must not be telling the truth.

 

I am not saying Jack is not telling the truth but he also says in that interview "we hadn't seen very many '49 Merc's it was really new". The '49 Merc had been available for almost two years by the time Jerry or Sam chopped their cars. All I am saying is these guys obviously have some issues with remembering when things took place.

 

You cant stand being wrong K13. What a fucking joke you are.

 

Lot of testosterone in this thread.

If Jerry and Jack say that Jerry's was the first, works for me.

 

That is classy Bickford. Because I have an opinion that differs from your I am a fucking joke. Might be time for you to grow up a bit.

I am sorry but for me the time line doesn't work and until someone provides dated evidence to prove it that is how I feel.

And with all do respect to your Grandfather and whoever you talked to at the DMV one day when you went in I am going to take the word of 3 independent sources who have a vested interest from a reputation and financial aspect as a collector to know what the facts about the history of license plates is. They didn't provide me with oh you may have gotten them in October maybe November they gave me hard dates and explained the changes that took place with the distrubution of License plates in California in 1951. But I guess they are lying as well. I guess George got to them to help cover it all up.

 

Thanks for posting that "interview" with Jack Stewart Jeff.

I have talked and interviewed Jack Stewart about the old days and specifically about his own 1941 Ford that was built by the Ayala's and finished by George Barris. His memory about the old days is exceptionally well, so if Jack says Jerry's was chopped first then I hold his words for that.

But with all the photographic "evidence" and words and writing we have on this subject it still looks to me that Sam's car – though chopped after Jerry's Merc was chopped – was finished first with a paint job, custom grille etc.

So it would still be tough to mark any of these cars as THE first chopped merc.
If two cars are in a drag race, and one car is the first from the start and taking a couple of cars lead until midway and is overtaken by the other car... its obvious who is the "winner" at the finish line.

Personally I don't care who's Merc sedan was chopped first or second. But I love to talk about it and find evidence that shows when these fantastic cars where built. And even more how they where built and what inspired them to built it, and in the case of Jerry's Merc how the previous models influenced how the car was chopped, and how the builders learned from it.

I was surprised by some of the more fanatic discussions on this thread.. but it was good, and most of the times it brought some more info out there. But I don't think there is a fight going on between some of these guys. This is a written forum and written words sometimes loose some of their original intended meanings, or gain some that where not intended in the first place.

After all we where all in this for the good cause to find out more info about these first chopped Merc's

 

Very true Rik!! I might of lost my cool on a few post. I am very passionate about these custom cars. So sometimes i get fired up easily. You, Jeff and i know how Jack memory is still really good. I do love that Jack has no hesitation when he is ask the question. Jack has answered all my questions in the same matter. He is fun to hang out with.

 

Got to just love this poster. R.I.P Sam, a true Legend

 

Some time ago I recreated that poster with the scans I had from Marcia's Photo Album.
I asked John Barris – Sam's son – who showed me the poster in Sacramento in 2009, if it was ok if I would have a pdf file from this poster available for free for the Custom Car enthusiast all over the world.
No problem he said, but if you do, please add a Donation button for the Shriners Children Hospitals. John is very involved in that.

So please feel free to download the pdf file from this Poster recreation from.
If you open the pdf file on the site it might appear as a negative, but once opened as a pdf file it looks like it should be. This one is done in black and white. The original poster was printed on tinted paper.

Click the image below

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I been wanting this since i 1st saw it. i donated money and download the image. Thanks again !!

 

I've found the discussion to be very interesting. I appreciate Jeff's legwork on this, maybe someday some more pictures will turn up.

And this works for me:

But it's just as important to me when the first painted and complete Merc debuted too.

I of course look at this stuff through primarily a Merc lens but I wonder..

So no chopped Merc is shown in 1950. In 1951 Jerrys' car debuts. Do we know how many shows there were in Socal back in 1951? I assume the Armory show was a summer show? What is the chronology of Merc's showing up in shows in 1951?

 

Thanks for making this poster printable Rik,I don't know what to do to turn this into a actual poster cause im not very good at doing computer stuff but I will figure something out.This a great collection of shots.

 

Nice !

 

HISTORY LESSON TIME !!!!

Look these guys build cars that were CLASSY not TRASHY. Maybe for people will start building CLASSY CUSTOMS again.

 

Wow,I really can't believe how quiet this thread got after that short little video.

 

Pardon my ignorance- I even put a new battery in my hearing aid, I can`t understand what they are saying.

 

So I guess it is safe to say that of the Barris Chopped 1949 Merc Sedan's it was Jerry Quesnel's Mercury that got chopped first, and Sam Barris his Merc got finished first!

There are still a lot of gaps in the whole picture of when this all happened and how etc. But overe all I think this was and still is a great thread with a lot of really good info. And hopefully more will come out sooner or later.

Jeff... since you have talked to Jerry about this and I guess other subjects several times. Perhaps you can share some more of the stories that Jerry told you. This might shed some more light on the subject. And if not its always good to hear the stories for the guys who where there at the time... and in this case even better because Jerry was not just a guy that was there, but he even worked there, and his car was built at the Barris shop by Him, Sam and perhaps some other Barris employees...