I searched and searched, but I keep finding conflicting views. So here is my question... I have a set of '52 F-1 spindles and hubs. I also just got a set of 12" Buick drums for it. They still need to have the work done to them to fit the hubs, but I have no 12" backing plates. As I recall, a set of '48-'56 F-2 backing plate are the ones I'm looking for. Is this correct?
i think the f1 are 11 inch so won't help at all i have 55 f250 backing plates shoes wheel cyl etc on my 34 using round ford spindles with multifinned buick drums i bought wilsom welding hubs $200 the buick drums need to have 1/4 - 3/8 inch removed from the inboard drum shoe surface to gain backing plate clearance after all was said and done would have been better buying complete wilson welding set-up john
the f-1 does have 11" drums, but the f-2 has the 12" drums that will bolt directly to my square f-1 spindles.
You're looking for '53-55 F250 front or rear (rear are identical & actually preferred due to wheel cylinders) backing plates. Some F350 rears are the same too. Don't know if they can be used with the F1 hubs or not. You can definitely use them with '40-41 "inside" hubs. I'm sure the '42-48 outside hubs will work as well. l
my '52 hubs were inside. So wouldn't they still work the same? And wyh would the rear wheel cylinders be preferred?
We use the Wilson Welding set up for the shop they work great. Wilson Welding hubs and 39 Lincoln Backing plates (ask for the 2" shoes for buick brakes). Since the Lincoln backing plates for Ford use a narrower shoe. Kevin Thompson Thompson's Garage Cincinnati, Oh www.thompsonsgarage.com
Unsure of the F1 spacing (inside v outside) compared to early Ford p***enger car hubs - can't say one way or the other. Try it & see. The rear backing plates already have a dual-servo wheel cylinder. The fronts have a single-servo wheel cylinder. I just drilled one more hole in the fronts to accept F100 cylinders so I had normal dual-servo wheel cylinders. Seriously, search "buick drums" or "f250 buick" & there will be more stuff than you can read.
Here is a repost of an article I did on Buick drums and F250 backing plates a while back: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122603 There is a ton of good stuff on the HAMB about Buick drum/hydraulic brakes but no single post on the complete conversion. I just finished up the front brakes on my 29 and figured I would do a write-up on the “how to” and parts I used to tie it all together. I apologize for having links to some of the pictures, but their is a 20 picture limit on posts. Unless you are prepared for a lot of headaches and stuff that doesn’t fit together, an old Wagner or Bendix brake parts interchange manual is a must have. I started with a set of 45-fin Buick 12” aluminum drums from a 1964 LeSabre, a set of 1953-56 F250 backing plates, early Ford 1943-45 juice hubs that mount on the INSIDE of the drums, and 1935/36 spindles and axle. The 45-fin aluminum drums were used in big Buicks from 1957-64. The F250 backing plates are the Bendix floating/self adjusting design similar to the hard to find Lincoln backing plates, a huge improvement over the 1939-48 Ford-Lockheed brakes. I went with the 1943-45 hubs because I planned to run 16” smoothy rims with a 5 x 5 ½” bolt pattern. There is a little less machining if you use the later 1946-48 outside-mount hubs, but I like the cleaner look of the early juice hubs that mount inside the drum. I have never heard of anyone using Model A hubs, and given the low speed design of these cars, didn’t want to be the first to try them. I picked up the 1935/36 spindles/axle as a cheap way to lower the front end with the 2” factory drop without the steering arm clearance problems of an aftermarket dropped axle (I did have to tweak the arms slightly to clear the tie rod and to set the Ackerman). http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/spindle.jpg In addition to the 1964 LeSabre drums I was using for the conversion I also had a 1960 Invicta drum. They are the same thickness, diameter and have the same size hub register hole, but there are subtle differences between the early and late Buick drums. The LeSabre drums had balance weights and the Invicta drum did not. The machined area for the hub on the inside of the drum is about 1/8" smaller in diameter on the early drum and may require machining a little too close to the bolt circle for inside the drum hubs. There are also several differences between the two drums to accommodate the linings used in the two cars. The 1964 LeSabre drum has a 2 ½” wide machined surface to accommodate 2 ¼” wide shoes and the lining contact surface is recessed ½” from the back of the drum. The Invicta drum has a 2 ¾” wide machined surface to accommodate 2 ½” wide shoes and the lining contact surface is recessed ¼” from the back of the drum. Using the early drums will effectively move the drums inboard, a clever way to avoid spacers that may be needed to bring the linings in full contact with the drums for certain combinations of backing plates and spindles. I drilled out the rivets on the Buick drums and knocked out the studs on the Ford drums to separate the drums and hubs. Be careful to support the backside of the Ford hubs when you knock out the studs so you don’t bend the mounting flanges! A buddy of mine did the machine work to register the Buick drums to the Ford hubs. He had hoped to find a chunk of pipe that was close to the right size to make the job a little easier but ended up using aluminum stock. The drums should be registered to the hubs, NOT the studs, so you don’t need to be concerned about the orientation of the drums and the hubs in the future. After cleaning up the snouts on the Ford hubs, he bored a hole in the aluminum stock for a light press fit on the hubs, then turned the ODs for a tight slip fit to the holes in the Buick drums. He trued up the mating surfaces of the Buick drums and the Ford hubs and turned the OD of the hub flanges to fit the recesses on the inside of the Buick drums. The register rings were installed with Loc***e Spherical Parts Locker. I am running 16” steelie wheels so I wanted to keep the 5 ½” Ford bolt pattern. Pilot holes were drilled in the Buick drums to match the pattern with the final sizing waiting until the studs were installed so the holes could be machined for a nice slip fit. I had used a BFH to knock out the Ford studs and the Buick drums were ~3/16” thicker than the original Ford drums so new longer studs were needed. I have seen suggestions to use NAPA 6411145, 6411138 or Dorman 610-132 studs. At 1 29/64” overall, the NAPA 6411145 may be a little short for good lug engagement, and all of these studs are larger in diameter than the originals and require machining the holes in the hubs. You can get original style studs from Mac’s for about a buck and a half (Mac’s 68-1107). At 1.56” overall (original studs were ~1 3/8” overall), the studs were plenty long to use with the Buick drums (six full threads of engagement with 16” Ford rims). They were a little loose in hub bores so we knIMGed them and installed them with Loc***e Spherical Parts Locker. After the studs were installed, the holes in the drums were machined to their final size. http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/***yBack.jpg http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/***y.jpg Speedway and Mac’s sell kits that include backing plate centering rings and spindle shaft spacers for mounting juice backing plates to early mechanical brake spindles (Speedway # 91631928 @$19.95 and Mac's #X-2000 @$17.95). I have been told that you can use Model A piston rings and valve seats but decided to spring for the $20 kit. http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/kit.jpg As it turned out, the spacers were not needed with the 1935/36 spindles I was using, 1937-41, round back or 1942-48 rectangular back spindles. Spacers or shortening the backs of the hubs would be needed with Model A spindles and the nearly identical 1932-34 spindles so the hubs do not bottom out against the backing plates. The rear bearings in the 1943-48 hubs are recessed ~3/8” and the rear bearing surface of Model A and 32-34 spindles is ~5/16” inboard compared to 1936-48 spindles. Careful measurements and the appropriate spacers/machining are needed with these spindles to ensure that the shoes are in full contact with the drums. The F250 backing plate/spindle bolt pattern did not quite line up, a problem if you are using any 1928-36 spindles with 3/8” backing plate bolts (early Ford 1939-48, Lincoln and F250 backing plates all use the later 1937-48 bolt pattern with larger ½” bolts). I slotted the holes in the backing plates and grease shields, and bolted them to the spindles with new 3/8” fine thread bolts and self locking nuts. I used flat washers on the hub side of the backing plate to retain the centering rings. The hubs were installed with new bearings, races and seals (same for all Ford 1928-48) also available from Mac’s. http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/BPslots.jpg The F250 backing plates use single-sided wheel cylinders but are easily converted to dual cylinders by drilling an additional mounting hole. Most folks use F100 cylinders (1 1/16” Wagner #F41718/F41719). I did a little poking around on the Bendix website and found some whopping big 1 3/16” cylinders from a 1992 F250 Supercab that were a direct drop in for the backing plates. The bigger cylinders provide a little extra hydraulic force to the front wheels and the only difference was that they used a smaller 3/8” fitting instead of the typical 7/16. I wanted to take full advantage of the F250’s Bendix brake design and robbed the adjusting hardware from the rear of the 1964 LeSabre 45 fin drum donor. You can also use the rear hardware from a 1971-76 Caprice Wagon with 12” drum brakes that is still available from GM. Things started to get tricky when I looked into the brakes shoes. Not taking the steps to ensure correct relationship between the brake linings and the drums has undoubtedly been the cause of many poor performing conversions. Mismatched spindles, spacers, backing plates and hubs could leave you with less than 1” of usable lining width! The stock F250 backing plates used 2” wide shoes but the Buick drums can handle up to 2 1/2” linings. I mocked up the 2 ¼” and 2 ½” Buick brakes and the half round cutouts at the top of the shoes were machined differently throwing the shoes way off center (the Buick pivot pins are ~1/4” closer to the edge of the backing plates). I try to avoid modifications to service parts whenever possible and went with the 2” F250 shoes so I wouldn’t have to machine the critical pivot pin radius. I drilled 9/32” diameter holes in the bottoms of the shoes for the Bendix self adjuster springs and tweaked the slots in the shoes to improve the fit of the self adjusters. http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/topCompare.jpg http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/bottomCompare.jpg If you have your heart set on the larger 2 ¼” and 2 ½” shoes or want to get away from modifying the shoes, you may be able to relocate the pivot pins on the F250 backing plate or simply use a set of the early Buick 12” backing plates. The earlier Invicta style is probably easier to adapt than the later LeSabre because of the way the plate is mounted to the spindle. You can get the spacers you need for the swap from Mecutem on the HAMB and has Pete Smythe psmythe@patrons.com has adapters and machined Buick backing plates for $200 plus shipping. Lots of good info in this thread: The outer lips of the F250 backing plates are ~3/8” wider in diameter than the 1939-48 Ford and Lincoln parts, and just fit inside the grooves on the backsides of the Buick drums. Keeping with my philosophy of avoiding modifications to service parts, I used a 4 1/2" electric angle grinder with a grinding wheel and thinned the lip by carefully removing ~1/16” from the inner edges of the outer lips of the backing plates for better clearance in the grooves on the backsides of the drums. I also machined an access hole for the self adjuster of the left hand backing plate. The F250 plates are not left and right and a new hole was needed to line up with the star wheel of the adjuster. The early Ford juice and Lincoln backing plates require machining of the inner lips of the grooves in the Buick drums to accommodate the outer lips on these backing plates. If you are using the later 1946-48 Ford hubs that mount on the OUTSIDE of the drums, the thicker face of the Buick drums will move the drums inboard requiring a bit of machining to the top surfaces of the inner lips of the grooves in the Buick drums. If you plan to use these backing plates or hubs, you will have to mix and match these modifications so the backing plates clear the drums. Careful measurements are required to ensure full contact between the linings and the drums. The offset of the F250 backing plates provides full contact between the 2” linings and the Buick drums, but this is not the case with the 1939-48 Ford backing plates. The shoe anchor pads of the early juice plates are offset ~7/16 “ inboard compared to the F250 backing plates. I have heard that some folks simply machine away a portion of the linings so the back lips of the drums don’t cut the shoes. The linings for these backing plates are only 1 ¾” wide. With a little more effort, you can correct the offset rather than sacrifice lining width. Using 1946-48 juice hubs that mount on the OUTSIDE of the drums will move the Buick drums inboard ~3/16”, the difference in thickness between the original Ford and Buick drums. Using the early Buick drums designed for the larger 2 ½” brakes will effectively move the drum inboard ¼” compared to the later drums designed for the 2 ¼” linings. I have not mocked up either of these combinations, but it looks like this may be all that is needed to bring the shoes into full contact with the drums. Spindle/backing plate spacers can be fabricated as needed to move the backing plates outboard. The grooves on the backside of the Buick drums will have to be machined accordingly to accommodate the offset. Measure carefully and do whatever you have to do to ensure full contact between the linings and drums for the parts you have. I do not have any Lincoln backing plates and can’t say how the offset of these plates affects lining/drum contact. Can somebody chime in on this? Here are a couple shots of how everything went together. About ¾” of the finned drum is visible beyond the inner bead of the 4” wide 16” steelie wheels. http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/BPrear.jpg http://members.cox.net/gashog/HAMB/drumOffset.jpg There are many combinations of spindles, hubs and backing plates that can be used for the Buick drum conversion, but just getting the pieces to bolt together doesn’t guarantee that they will function as an effective brake drum ***embly. I think I have identified everything you’ll need to watch out for if you try the swap. Many thanks to Jim Geiger for his ideas and suggestions, machining my hubs and drums, and modifying my hairpin for the early spindle's 3/8" bolts.
Gashog - that's the best, detailed account covering many options of Buick brakes I've seen - thank you!
Saying thanks may but be the greatest understatement in history, but thanks. You have cleared up a few points that I was unclear about. I will be doing this conversion thanks to your pics and part #'s. Again, thanks.
I have a set of 45 fin Buick drums from a 64 Electra that I was hoping to use with 58 - 60 Buick backing plates, 37 - 41 ford spindles and wilson welding 46-48 ford hubs. The question I have is which brake shoes do I get since the earlier Buick drums accomodated a 2 1/2 inch wide shoe and the 64 drums accommodate a 2 1/4 inch wide shoe. Should I ***ume that since I'm using 64 drums, I should get the shoes to fit that drum ( 2 1/4)? Additionally, since I'm using a 58 - 60 backing plate, I ***ume I would then use the wheel cylinder, springs for the 58 - 60. Some guidance on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
The maximum lining width is going to be determined by the drums you are using, so at best you can use the 2 1/4" linings. You'll need to mock everything up with the backing plate spacers you are using and the Wilson hubs to make sure you can advantage of the full 2 1/4" width. You can use whatever hardware/cylinders you want on your backing plates. I would use the later Buick hardware so you can make the early set up self-adjusting.
This belongs in a book, great info and would have saved me a bunch of h***le. In my case, after looking all over, even on ebay I could never find any of the right f-250 backing plates. I finally caved and bought the Wilson welding Lincoln backing plate setup. I used 46-48 hubs fit on the outside of the buick drums. When I got to figuring what it was going to cost for the f250 plates if I ever could find them, and new shoes, new wheel cylinders, and hardware kits. the wilson Lincoln setup aint that bad of a deal with an alliance member price. They fit great on the buick drums and everything is there. just something to consider.
Brilliant post gashog! Thank you from another person who is getting ready to embark on the Buick finned drum journey.
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