Stu Hilborn passed on December 16 and there is a nice tribute thread that I didn't want to take sideways with this question. He was the first to turn 150 MPH with a car powered with a 1934 Ford flathead with modified stock heads that he had developed over an 8 year period in July 1948. Is there something special about a '34 block, or was is it just the fact that he had one and just keep improving things? Bob
That is a really good question, Bob. This is a subject thats been discussed in the Early Ford Club for some time. The 34's weren't a little faster, they were a lot faster then the rest of the flatheads. If you look in the Ford archives they cite the stock '34 running a three second faster quarter mile. They have the best flowing 180 degree manifold, but my guess is, the spark plug location on the aluminum dome head is crucial. The lighter crank shaft, and the distributor total advance is different from the rest. I have a '34 sedan that my Grandfather bought new in 1934. When my uncles came home from WW2 they all got to borrow the Ford 'till they were able to get on their own feet. They all said the same thing about their '34 Ford experience. (That car goes like hell). Rich
good question, looks like the 34 engine made more hp at a lower rpm than other engines. But why? or could this just be a fluke? I can only imagine hot rodding back in those days, not like you could pick up a catalog and order up the go goodies. You want it you make it...
Well the stock ones had a bigger carb (40 and 48 Stroms). The pre war engnes also had the valves closer to the bore which increased compression. Maybe the flatter port angle did something. I really can't think of a really good reason to use one over a later pre war.
Well if they were babbit bearings, you could off set the main journal and rod bearings to increase the c/r
"...I have drove Fords exclusively when I could get away with one... For sustained speed and freedom from trouble, the Ford has got every other car skinned, and even if my business hasn't been strictly legal it don't hurt anything to tell you what a fine car you got in the V8." I don't think I have to tell you that the last V8 Ford they got away with was a new '34 Fordor. Must be something to those '34s...
'34's were fast because the new 180/2 barrel setup cured the poor manners of all v-8's of the time at low speeds without hurting the good top end...and they were light, with Fords after that getting heavier on the same HP. They also had a bit more compression and faster spark advance than '32-3 and still had the fairly hot early cam. In comparison with later 85's I don't think there is anything except maybe the cam to recommend a '34 engine, it was just carrying less weight. They were faster than '32-3 from the engine development, but were only superior to later Fords because of weight. I betcha he used that engine because he had a good one sitting there in his shop.
A lot of the 1934 performance factor was irrelevant to Hilborn, I think, since he used an ultra-light chassis and probably a reground cam...but: '34 advantages over '32-3: Iron crank...actually increased topend by being stiffer, improved smoothness from better counterweighting. Faster advance 180 degree manifold improved low end, carb was big enough for good top end more compression '34 advantages over later Fords: WEIGHT!!! 4.11 gears (3.78 more common from about '37) hotter cam than '37 up bigger carb than late '36 up. Some numbers FROM FORD. These are not ultimates, but minimum numbers that a new car should be able to meet to prove condition. They were published so dealers had a standard for complaints on mileage, speed, and acceleration. 1932...10--60 accel in HIGH GEAR ONLY 23 sec 73.5 top 1934...same...17.5 83.8 mph top 1935...still 4.11...20.5 seconds, 84.5 top 1937-40 3.78 23 seconds, 85.6 t0p So...more power than '32, but only weight advantage over later Note that this accel is in top gear, so not really real world for us, and that these are minimums, not best...a car that could not meet these and other published tests including mileage needed work. Accel was top gear to exclude other factors top speed was flat road by speedometer mileage figures were flat road, steady speed, using the 1/10 gallon Zenith rig Tests were thus meant to be repeatable and doable by dealer.
Looked up some standard coupe weights, and found this interesting. 1934 coupe 2,533 lbs. 1935 coupe 2,625 lbs. 1936 coupe 2,560 lbs. 1937 coupe 2,383 lbs. CORRECTION: Sorry about the 1937 coupe weight Guys, this appears to be an average between the V8 60, and the 221, 85 H.P. engine cars. 1937 Model 74, V8, 60. coupe weighs 2,275 lbs. 1937 Model 78, 221, 85 H.P. coupe weighs 2,496 lbs. Rich....
I've got fordor specs only in the bulletins I have at hand. What they show... '32 V8 2512 '33 2675 '34 2675 '35 2849 '37 2761 '40 2966 Heavier cars than coupe, but the annual change is the point. I think these numbers are more realistic...by '37 there was a lot more metal in the frame, probably equivalent to 2 1932 frames...a lot more sheetmetal...by 1940 aluminum parts of engine were gone... Another hidden advantage...in 1934 you could test a real roadster to boost the numbers, significantly less iron than in a coupe or convertible.
This doesn't surprise me. I've heard that the '37 V8-60 Tudor was the lightest Ford V8 ever built (probably refers to closed cars, not roadsters). There was a very specific mission to reduce cost for '37, and the Ford engineers did everything they could think of to reduce weight. Not for performance, but to reduce material costs.
Maybe Eddie Miller (Stus mentor) knew the advantages of the 34 block & passed on the knowledge. He may have even had a 34 block that he gave to Stu when they were working on/developing the Carburettor manifold.
Thanks for all the replies! The August 1946 issue of California Timing News states that the camshaft was hand grown by Eddie Miller. It took him several months, used a grindstone and file. Bob
This can be substantiated by asking anyone that has restored a '37 how many stress cracks they had to fix in their body.
That 2,383 weight for a '37 coupe is 400 pounds lower than the Ford figure for a fordor...too much. I think that must be a number for a V8-60 car, making it sort of irrelevant...the extra 200 pounds saving would be gone once a regular flathead and trans went in, and it is too big a car to hotrod with a 60. Frame, body, and everything but the wheels would be same weight as an 85.
Sorry about that Bruce, looks like someone averaged the weight difference between the two engine options, at 2383 lbs. for the 1937. I like to be as accurate as posible in my research, so here are the shipping weights. 1937 Model 74 V8 60 coupe, 5w, 2p, 2,275 lbs. 1937 Model 78 V8 221 85 H.P. standard coupe 5w, 2p, 2,496 lbs. Still comes in lighter than the 1934 standard coupe.
Ever seen a flathead guy cry after windowing a heavily ported race motor?.. My guess would be there was a lot of time spent on that block and was working really well ... My guess is there wasn't a giant advantage till the bigger bore blocks came out and they were probably expensive.... On the v-8 60 comment I cannot confirm a difference but Ed Bingelli used to race a lot of hard tops in nor-cal and did really well ...he told me that the v-8 60 cars were actually made slightly lighter and that he would look for those and put a 85 motor in those....seems wierd they would make a different chassis and stuff... But also wierd they would make a different axle and wheels too... I guess it's plausible that every thing was stamped out of a gauge or two lighter mat'l..
I was bored one day and weighed some of my axles v8-60 axles weigh 17.5 pounds, my 33-36 axle weight was 20.5 32 heavy axle weights 23 lbs, so there is a slight weight saving.
It'd be interesting to see how the 60 compared to the same year 85 axles, 1937 and so on. thanks for the numbers.
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