Technical Why I converted to Pertronix on my flathead

I am traditional as it comes with my '30-'31 coupe AV8 build. Nothing on it is newer than 1950 except for the first generation Mustang seats. So I was having some ignition problems years ago and isolated it to my distributor on the 59A flatty. Bought a brandy new refrurbed crab dizzy from Bubba because I wanted the best and also wanted to put the dizzy issues behind me. Sourced some Packard 440 solid core wire and it ran great until this year.

I have less than 6000 miles on the build. I put about 1000 miles on it a year. Then I began having trouble. Car began to just up and die on me on long rides. Would be fine and then just lose power and break up and die. Sometimes after 45 minutes on the road. Sometimes after 20 minutes. Began trouble shooting and led me back finally to pulling the dizzy to take a looky look. Here's what I saw.



Additionally, the spring clip breaker plate retaining ring was partially dislodged. I snapped it back into place before taking this pic. Check out the points. I mean, holy shit, right? They're not aligned at all. Now, I trust Bubba and I like him a LOT. But if even he can't get a good set of points these days, who can? Sure, sure, sure...go out and source some NOS points. Go ahead. How long is THAT gonna keep me on the road? I like to DRIVE this thing and more than that I like to have my hot wife in the car next to me as we cruise. But, she ain't getting in the car if she thinks we're gonna end up with me getting greasy on the side of the road as I try to get us running again if we break down so....

I broke down fellas. Called up Pertronix. Ordered up the required bits (module, coil and a spool of their plug wire) and had at it yesterday.

Spent most of the day running the new plug wires as you can't use solid cores with the Pertronix. I HATE running and building plugs wires on a flatty. It's a real pain in the butt. Installed the coil and then went at the distributor conversion. So, the Pertronix unit for a crab dizzy is a complete replacement breaker plate with their module on it. Pulled the old breaker plate out and went to install the Pertronix plate and the damn thing was too big in diameter and wouldn't fit into the distributor body (F*ck!!!). Got on the phone with them to make sure I wouldn't void any warranty if I massaged their breaker plate the few fractions of a millimeter needed to install it. Did the required mod to it and finished the install. Fired it up late at night just to hear it run. Made me think of this meme I saw the other day...



Didn't even bring it up to temperature. I just wanted to hear it run. Seems to run very well so far. I will keep y'all posted. As a side note, I needed to do a tune-up on my '55 first series Chevy 1/2 ton a while back. Has a 235 I6 in it. Had a nice set of NOS points laying around. Went well. Went to the local NAPA to get another set of points as I like to have spares around just in case. Holy crap!!! The set I got was absolutely horrible. Real junk. I really think that good points are almost impossible to find these days. So, I'm probably going to switch over the truck to Pertronix as well.
Andy

 

Yeah, that's the thing about points ignitions these days. They work fine if they get the maintainance they need, but if you can't get good quality replacement parts it's impossible to keep them working well.

 

Go ahead and order a spare Pertronix unit to keep with you at all times because eventually it will die too, and it will do so without warning.

 

^^^Yeah on that. Bubba is awesome. No doubt. Great guy and very helpful always. It's too bad he's having such a hard time with his health. Tried to call him up the other week and seems his phone number was disconnected.
Andy

 

^^^ I still have most of a spool.
Andy

 

But you don't want to run Packard 440 with the Pertronix. The solid core of the Packard 440 and Pertronix don't mix.

 

^^^Yup. As stated in my original post.
Andy

 

You will not be sorry! Went that way on my Buick 13 years, 20,000 miles back.

Ben

 

This reminds me of my own points story... I put a later model y-block distributor in my 56 about 10 years ago when I put the 57 intake on. Anyway, apparently I lost track of time and when it died the other day on me...I realized I had put a little over 20k miles on the points. They were toast to say the least. I did replace them with another set that seem fine. Not sure I am ready to take the leap to Pertronix yet...

 

I grew up on point type ignition and I have no issues with using it. I have also used Pertronix with good results. The biggest problem I have found lately with point type ignition is finding quality components especially condensers!

 

I was lucky and found a full box of Texaco points and condenser sets. The points look like Echlin (?) or maybe Standard. No matter, they are old, new and USA made. I have two flatheads and enough points to last the rest of my life. I don't think I paid more than 25 bucks for them.

 

I agree with keeping a spare module for the electronic ignition, I had traveled over 8000 miles with the Pertronix ignition in the sbf in the Ranch Wagon and fortunately when it died I was less than 5 miles from home. HRP

 

Cannot understand when the plate would not fit the dist. ??? Wonder if it was the correct one. I have done several and never had an issue. Running one in my roadster over ten years.

 

^^^When I spoke to tech support he was dumbfounded as well as to why the plate wouldn't fit. Now, mind you it was only .25 millimeters larger than the stock breaker plate when I mic'ed them up but that was enough. May be just a casting issue on this one piece as the Pertronix plate is cast aluminum and it's diameter is not machined to size.
Andy

 

Good post would add only a suggestion . Dont use the Petronixs ignition coil ( enough said just don’t )
Buy the Bosch blue # 00012 on amazon , best coil ever made , wont Hirt the module and will last forever .. glad to help

 

I had similar issues with the flathead in my T, I bought many sets of points trying to replace the burnt out ones in the original diving helmet style distributor, and they all had issues, contacts not lining up, incorrect offset holes, the oval adjuster hole being round, etc, including some NOS "made in USA" ones which themselves were shit.

Bought a Stromberg crab style distributor with the electronic guts figuring that'd be the way to solve the issue once and for all, but it has been nothing but problems. The Stromberg people have been very nice and responsive and gave me some things to test out and it's possible my old style generator with the cut-out on top is just not keeping up the voltage that the distributor needs to function, apparently the 6V electronic distributor needs the max power that a 6V system can provide.

But I feel like if I would have been able to just find one good set of points to replace my old ones with, without having to buy many sets which all had problems and defects, the whole thing would have been a non-issue.

I'm a body man, I'm not much of a mechanic, especially when it gets deep into "theoretical" territory, and buying lots of new stuff that doesn't necessarily work as-installed frustrates me to no end.

 

Went the Petronix route with my 354 Chrysler in my Plymouth. Drove it a few months, maybe 300 miles, and it quit on me. Took everything down to the "factory" and said there was nothing wrong with my set-up, but gave me a new unit. Six months later it died again. Took everything back to Walnut(?), asked to see it tested, wasn't allowed. Gave me a new unit. Six months later it died. In the worse place around. Went back to stock and have had no problems. Your results may vary (and cost you).

 

A bit interesting, with failing electronic ignitions.

Heat is always an enemy of electronics, and it's damn near unavoidable for electronics meant to be on or near engines. Still, there can be small changes that can make a big difference. Putting the electronic box near the exhaust manifold may kill it, while putting it where there's a steady flow of air, preferably cool outside air, may help it survive "forever".

Another thing that may be less obvious is the voltages in the system. The voltages on the secondary side of the system (i.e. the spark) is directly linked to the primary voltage that the electronics are connected to. A wider plug gap bumps the voltage up a little bit, just like high compression or an engine running lean. Shouldn't really be a problem, but those factors are part of the reason why ignition coils on modern engines often have a short life.
Much worse is a bad spark plug or wire for example, those can push the spark voltage through the roof or even lead to no spark at all (which gives you the highest voltage the coil is able to produce). The ignition system that while working normally cruising down the road may be at perhaps 10 000V is suddenly forced up to 20-30-40-50 000V. The engine may still run fine, there can be a good enough spark on the plug to ignite the fuel, but the system is under so much more load than normal. Eventually, something gives up.

Under such circumstances replacing a burnt electronic box is just fixing the symptom, not fixing the cause. But not all problems are easy to diagnose well, especially not with what the average guy has in his tool box.

 

There are few advancements that have helped performance of automobiles more than electronic ignition. It has allowed for hotter, more stable, controllable, and reliable spark than points. Period. That's not a debatable point. It improves all aspects of the way the vehicle runs, better performance, better cold starting... Of course there are guys who swear by points and this is the HAMB of course and that's fine. I always hear the old anecdote, "points will always get you home. you can always file them." Maybe that's true, but let's be real, do I really want to be pulling points out of my distributor on the side of the road, leaning over a hot engine? Absolutely not. I just want my shit to work. My Mopar orange box has been flawless for almost 2 decades. I've put over 10,000 miles on my Olds 324 this year with a Pertronix, as well. With the Olds especially the improvement in performance was immediately noticeable. I could start the cold engine and it would give me an immediate smooth idle.

Will the Pertronix crap out on me eventually. Perhaps. I carry a spare just in case, just as I would with a set of points. I also have AAA. But they've been much more trouble free than points have been for me. Just don't leave the ignition on with the engine off.

 

Go with what makes you comfortable.

 

That's a really interesting thought. The Pertronix calls for .005 wider plug gap over stock. Is the answer to have a heavier duty charging system to have more voltage? Or there something else to do to help stabilize voltage?

 

Drivability is the key issue. Points are 'traditional', but in the heyday of the flathead it was standard practice to do a 'tune up' (plugs, points, condenser, rotor and cap) about once a year, and that was when the average car was driven 7 or 8 K miles a year. In our modern minds, we want to spend our time driving, not wrenching, just so we can make it to work tomorrow. Electronics work, and avoid the hassle of finding quality, dependable parts. At some point, 'traditional' just make sense. JMHO, YMMV

 

Good post would add only a suggestion . Dont use the Petronixs ignition coil ( enough said just don’t )
Buy the Bosch blue # 00012 on amazon , best coil ever made , wont Hirt the module and will last forever .. glad to help[/QUOTE]

Bubba!!! Glad to hear from you. I hope you are well and continuing to improve. I have heard about the Bosch coil and thanks for the suggestion. However, I went with the Pertronics coil because I didn't want to do anything that they didn't recommend so as not to void any warranty.
Andy

 

They don't really "call" for it as such, opening up the gap, as much as they do as they allow for it. The largest air gap in the secondary kind of determines how high the coil output voltage will rise. That's either the spark plug gap, or the air gap inside the distributor between the rotor and terminals. Opening up the plug gap can sometimes cause arcing and misfire under load, and the coil will overall run hotter I expect. An ignition scope will show the effects of this, it's important to keep the firing voltage under control.

Have about 25,000 miles on the same Ignitor I using a generator charging system. 20+ years. If anything, I think the electronic modules probably run into trouble with under voltage. Something like up to 16 volts, no problem.

They definitely don't like over current however (heat). Keep the primary circuit ohms resistance within spec. 'Course a lot of things change in 20 years, maybe they ain't what they used ta be.

 

Ah, I see I may have been a bit unclear. I was referring to the voltage pulse the ignition coil creates when the current through the primary side is interrupted, if the spark voltage is low (short spark etc.) the voltage spike on the primary side will be low too, if we force a high voltage spark (long spark, bad plug, plug wire with an internal break, etc.) the primary side will also have a much higher voltage spike.

On the secondary side such high voltages can kill the ignition coil, the spark can punch through the internal insulation if given enough time - or if there is a weakness in the insulation it may punch through the first time.

On the primary side, such a voltage pulse can be enough to kill the electronics, especially if the person designing the electronics just designed it to handle normal voltages on a more or less well working system, and didn't think about any worst case scenario - and even if it's built to handle the worst case sometimes that isn't enough.

This implies it's a somewhat bad idea to leave ignition wires loose any time the engine is turned over, or pull one loose at a time to find which cylinder is misfiring. Grounding the wires is a much better choice. Then again, sometimes you really need to see how long spark the system can supply, to see if it's healthy or not. Just keep in mind not to overdo it, if you think ½" spark is more than enough there's no reason to try to push it to 1", and if it does it well 5 times the next thousand would be fine too - unless the next thousand are what kills something.

The 12V feed input into the system is not so important for the life of the system. It is true that a low voltage input will reduce the output spark strength (energy & peak possible voltage) so we want to avoid voltage drop through old oxidized wires, connectors, switches etc, but I don't think it has much impact on the life of the electronics - not as long as we are talking about the normal voltage ranges in a 12V system anyway. Just make sure the ignition actually gets (close to) full battery voltage and it should be happy.

 

I was just thinking about posting something along these lines. When the secondary circuit fails to complete it causes some weird artifacts in the electromagnetic circuit generating high flyback voltages that can pierce through the insulation of the coil wiring, and/or damage components on the primary side. The guy above that posted about multiple early failures in a Pertronix system brought this to mind. He of course blamed the Pertronix, it couldn't possibly be something wrong with his installation. There are probably a couple hundred thousand Pertronix system in place working for decades with ten's of thousands of miles on them each, but he can't get a couple months out of it, it must be the Pertronix unit, right....

On a related note, I recall something from many years ago, I was just a kid, pre-teen age, my family was out camping and dune buggying with some family friends; this was pre-VW buggy days, the buggies were actually old Ford and Chevy cars stripped down to the bare chassis with a bench seat bolted down. One of the Chevy powered buggies developed a bad misfire while we were out on a run several miles away from camp, out in the dunes. They stopped and isolated which plug was misfiring and pulled it out and found it fouled. So they cleaned it up as best they could and reinstalled it, then when they fired the engine back up the guy pulled the plug wire off the plug and held it away from the plug so there was a gap, and the plug started firing, the misfire went away. He rigged up some coat hanger wire or something to hold it in position like that, and we drove back to camp. I remember my dad being amazed about it, and the memory has stuck with me all these years. I didn't understand completely what was happening, but I remember the old guys chuckling about it. It was one of those tricks people who lived with old cars developed.

 

Yes, and I can understand why someone would blame the Pertronics, or anything else that keeps failing time and time again, while there are no other obvious signs of trouble. Many broken parts are just a symptom of another problem, and lacking the ability to diagnose the original problem properly will have you blindly throwing new parts at it until you either make the right change by chance, or give up.

I've heard of the "lift the wire off the plug" trick, but I've never used it. The explaination I've seen about how it works is that the plug has been fouled by fuel/oil/soot on the porcelain, that becomes slightly conductive and when the voltage rises to make a spark the current instead goes across the porcelain through the buildup to ground, the voltage never goes high enough to make a spark there. With the extra gap before the plug the voltage must rise much higher before the spark jumps there, and the higher voltage is enough to make a spark in the right place.

 

Electricity is "lazy" and always seeking an easier path to ground. The spark plug gap is where all the juice is supposed to go, not cross fire between plug wires, arcing to ground at the distributor cap, burning holes in the rotor, or arcing inside the coil itself. One of the ignition defects that an oscilloscope will show right away, is the average "firing voltage" the coil hits before the points open for each cylinder. If the plug gap is too wide, it might idle OK but start breaking down under load and stuff starts burning up. I think GM was a little too optomistic when HEI first came on the scene, they had .060 or .080 plug gaps and were roasting rotors or something like that and had to back off.

 

I'm 45, have installed more sets of pertronix than then the number of times I've set points. You guys can do it from memory, takes me forever to look it up and relearn

 

Many of us motorcycle guys learned that pull the plug wire trick many years ago. If no gloves are handy it can shock you hard but you gotta keep the bike running.