I totally understand Zman. There's a right way to do it & a cheap-ass way to do it. Problem is- most people don't care what it looks like if they can't see it. A big bunch of all metal will hide many sins. For me- there's only 1 way to prep a car for paint. There's no magic filler for holes, no can of rust encapsulator or neutralizer that will make it all go away. You fix rust & pin holes with repair panels. That's the right way to do it. You fix the gaps before paint, not after. Personally- I don't do paint. I have no desire to do it & no time to tackle it. That's not to say I didn't paint when I was younger. Today, I'm waaaay to picky to be my own customer. I want 0 rust, no pin holes & perfect gaps. That doesn't come out of a spray gun. If the prep is shit, the paint will be shit. So to answer the statement previous- yes, IMO, the bodywork IS part of the paint process. That's not to say you can't weld in your own panels- I did complete floors, door skins, quarters, firewall, drip rails & then handed it off to my painter w/ no fillers. Painter took it from there. Even the 55, the paint & prep was over 15k, it was a 3 stage w/ pearl. This is on rotissere, prepping & blocking for paint. And- all my cars are painted apart. And I do drive my cars. Check the pic below. There's guide coat on all dash surfaces & even the door jams. All seams in the jams are welded & smoothed.
That's called "21st Century Composite Body Construction." I can understand some guys point though about separating the bill for the body work/restoration work necessary to get the car ready to even start at the primer/surfacer stage of "the Paint job." I remember seeing that Sultans member's Green with flames Safari Wagon (that I think went to Sweden) in the paint shop, stripped for painting and it had NO rust, and not one single parking lot ding anywhere on it. Mike Doyle, the painter, was shocked, and elated at how good condition it was. So whatever it cost, it was ALL "Paint Job." That one still had all the interior and glass out and all the shiny trim off to "do it right," even though it was truly in "it'll buff out" good original paint condition. The owner of that '37-'38 Chevy above might as well have said "for that price, after it gets painted the roof will be 4" lower and the trunk will be a rumble seat, right?"
paint jobs are NOT expensive... getting READY for paint is! this is a timely trade and worth every penny.
I think you guys are confusing painting with bodywork. Painting is what you do after the bodywork is done. edit: oops, lowcab beat me to it.
I understand body work being done right. I think Zookeeper answered the question. I can see a nightmare unfolding for the painter who is unaware of what is under HIS paintjob.
The reason I think that so many people think that paint and body work are so easy and shouldnt cost that much are all those damn DIY show's on TV. You have to remember these folks have an unlimited budget and numerous helpers you don't see working that body into shop during the week before the saturday morning show. You just see them spray a car with a dupli-color kit and thats it. Go to your local junk yard grab a rusty fender and bring it back to life with a hammer and dolly and then imagine having to do a whole car like that.
Not to be a dick but yes, I'm sure there are many people who could have done it for less than $75 an hour. Done it correctly also. I'm sure your schedule is full and you do an excellent job but I don't think this does much for the arguement concerning people complaining about the price to get things done.
I agree that good paint (AND prep!) ain't easy or cheap. What gets under my skin and a lot of others are that shops that quote 50 hours and 2 weeks, then don't understand when you throw a fit 3 months later!!!!! I also worked next to a body and paint shop for a couple years. When they are on, a good body guy can do wonders. Problem is, the shop and the customer are lucky to get more than 4-5 hours a day (flagging 8) out of them. I've seen more hacks than pros in the production shops. The guys that take twice as long to do it half-ass (like the previous stuff shown) than the guy that has the touch and can make the patch, weld it in and metal finish it in half the time. There seems to be a lot more apprentices and journeymen than pros, and the shops can't keep the good ones. So you have to do a lot of homework and hope the right guy doesn't quit a week after you drop off your car.
That is getting asinine also. This isn't the fault of the bodyman. Just asinine that some paint and material now costs this much.
Rule# 1...............NEVER write a closed sheet on any vehicle with two or more paint jobs on it that's headed for a complete until you see it in bare metal! REMEMBER, there is a reason why the other guy refused the job! Damnit! cement & tree bark, now why didn't I think of that? Swankey Devils C.C. " Humpty Dumpty was pushed !"
Most body men won't finish their work down to 180 before they shove it off on a painter. Show me a fully blocked and prepped car ready for paint that is straight and perfect. Been doing this a long time, and haven't seen one yet that didn't need more work to get it ready before you could paint it, unless I did it all myself. I get calls all the time from people wanting an estimate for a paint job, and the first thing out of their mouths is "It aint got no dents, it only needs paint." Perfectly straight cars might exist somewhere out there, but they are the exception to the rule. Bottom line is, no painter worth his salt would ever put his name on anything that might lead to some shit talking in the future. And it seems that the guy looking to cheap out on the job, is always the one who squalks the loudest. I would rather someone be mad for how much it costs, and it be perfect, than to have my name and reputation ruined for trying to save somebody a few bucks...
I don`t give quotes. I charge by the hour and you pay ever 40.Everthing hour is wrote down and everthing is photographed.Didn`t think this would work but I`m still open. I worked in the body trade for over 20 years and when it comes to high end work the only way is hourly.Don`t matter if it is metal work,bodywork or paint work.It just takes time to make it right.Also you never know what might happen while doing a car. from hiden rust,damage and thick filler to new after market parts that don`t fit without 2 hours of work.Someone has to pay for these problem and I`m not interested is losing my shirt. House of fab said it best "Good work isn't cheap..... cheap work isn't good....."
This comment is a whole other thread. Who told all these lil' boys "buffing and assembly is INCLUDED?" 15 + years ago , you could spray a car, go home, and the next morning it looked like glass( anyone remember DelGlo from PPG? )NOW after Osha, the Epa, and all the global warming chicken littles looking for the Ozone, it's dust free in just a few minutes! Yes you have "orange peel'.....the paint dries before it can flow out. Who's fault is this, the painter.....or this market? This is where I've told GOOD customers a Rollback is included...pick up your wife's car.
Included meaning I include that under the column "Paint Job." Not meaning I don't charge for it. Hell its almost 1/3 of the job! Use slower reducers and just really watch your technique and itll look a little more glasslike. I buff everything though. Its worth it.
....and the car can't tell the folks at shows/cruise-in's etc all the reasons and excuses for the lack of quality because you did the guy a favor and shorted the job because his old lady cut him off after the first 300 bucks ( ). Better off shipping the customer down the road.....to 29Nash's place.
Play nice! He has radar and will ruin this thread if he picks this up! BTW my new price for everything will be $300, regardless of what it is.
I know, just had to clarify that to the world. Ignorant (not you) comments like that always prick my " smart ass Tourette's side". Just had to make the point. Nice thread and pics.
which is why if we didn't do the prep (body and metal) we don't do the paint. it'll bite ya in the ass. which is why I make it clear it is an estimate. and there may be surprises once it gets down to bare metal. yep yep, there are people out there that appreciate it.
I don't know why you paint & body guys are complaining- the tools and materials do all the work for you.
Here's another of my 55's off to paint. All welding completed. Note no fillers & stripped to bare metal. When it arrives, it's taken back off the frame. Most painters love getting a car delivered like this.
As they say, painting is the easy part, for anything not just cars; houses, furniture too, etc. Painting is the finishing touch that goes on top of all the real work to seal it and protect it. As has been said, it is all the stuff you have to do to make something worth painting in the first place is where all the time/work/$ go before you paint.
while I agree with what has been said in this thread about price and quality, there are still some of us out here that can't justify the price of that kind of paint and body work. Over the years, I've probably had 200 cars painted(used car racket). Everything from commuters to muscle/street/hot rods. With that many, you get a little jaded as to quality vs price. Years back I sold a t- bucket with a two toned blue paint job. Buyer asked what color blues they were. I told him to ask my wife, since they were the same colors as our bathroom. I'm lucky. I've found the best painter/bodyman around. He understands EXACTLY what I'm looking for, and prices accordingly. I'm more of a ten foot kind of guy, and he hits it right on the money and sometimes brings it in at five feet. Sure there's flaws, but it's never in what he has done, and the finished product is shiney and one color, with no runs(all I'm ever looking for). So I guess what I'm trying to say is there are still some of us out there that know the difference between quality and price, and still lean toward price. And I for one know I'll never get QUALITY for MY PRICE. But since I get VALUE, I'm happy.
So, when a customer brings a car in like one of the pics in the first two posts for a "paint job", should a painter just paint over that shit? People as a whole consider these "minor repairs" as PART OF their paint job... Duh... That was kind of like one of the major points of this thread... in case anyone missed that part...
I thought that you were talking about after the metalwork was done; you know, when you have something to stick the primer to.
Damn, I guess I am too STUPID to have noticed this WHINING.... I didn't see it... Reality is making a payrole.... It ain't hard to pick out the folks who have never had this issue... those who have know what is "believable".
The Jalopy Journal
