I dont care if its expensive it had damn well better be worth the money I pay. Just make it good.....not just look good.
Zman,Thanks for this post. I have bounced my head off the wall trying to explain to customers that I am not the one who put metal flashing on their rusty car with Liquid Nail and skim coated it with bondo. If they would have asked me to look at the car before they purchased it and took it to the blaster we could have found them a better car. This happened last year to a 70 GTO Judge Clone we built for a customer and I do mean built from the ground up as there was nothing left of the car when it came back from the blaster. This car has not been finished as the owners business collapsed and he no longer has the funds to finish it.
I would never think that the paint will include this amount of bodywork! I have seen some scary pictures here...Hope its not every car you guys have to paint that comes in like that!!!
Good work isn't cheap..... cheap work isn't good..... Where as my world is more of the fabrication side than the paint/body side. I can relate 110% on this topic. When you look at some of the finished product of welding, the time spent on preparation and fit is what makes or brakes a job that is either a joy to look at or a job that could kill someone. (frames/rollcages) In my opinion the person who has the intestinal fortitude (guts) to publicly display their work in bare metal is a true craftsman.
At the body shop I used to manage, we had a saying. There is good, fast and cheap. You can pick two of those qualitys, but you don't get the other... Material cost is the other killer, most people have no clue what stuff costs.
This is exactly my point. Too many people think this is too expensive and they don't understand why. I made my point in support of Zman here to illustrate and you took the ball and ran with it. Based on your statement you think my labor rate is too high, well I don't think so. I deserve to get paid as well as cover my overhead no different than you. I'm not making a mint off of my customers. And that really is the point of this whole thread, isn't it.
No one has mentioned the cost amortized overs the years of service. While the initial price may seem extreme to the unknowledgeable, a properly done repair / refinish that lasts 10 to 15 years plus is really not that expensive in the long run. It drives me crazy to hear it can be done for $X ( pic your ridculously low price ) by those that are just not in the know or the quintissential "I have a buddy who works behind his house ". I guess I'm gettin old and cranky after hearing these same responses for decades. You get what you pay for but dont expect the shop to subsidize your car .
The only fair (and realistic way) is time and material. I have one project that is finally getting finished after 9 ("be done in 3 months") years and 3 shops. Another in a shop for 3 years and not much done (going to get it Monday). U can not get an accurate estimat without taking it apart and exposing the bare metal. If U want an old car done avoid the collision shops - take it to the hammer and dolly guy that knows what he is doing!!!
My wagon project was my first experience with a car that was in extreamly bad shape,,a ton of rust which we cut out,repaired and sandblasted. I ended up spending a lot of money buying tools,sheet metal brake,shears,new welder,shrinker/strecher and a host of other hand tools thatI needed and learning most of this by the seat of my pants and it turned out pretty good,,,Plus I now have the equipment for future projects, ,,BUT,,,, I know my limitations,If I want a nice body work and paint job I am not the guy to do that! Sure I can spray a coat of primer and get by,,but I leave it to the guys that do it for a living,,,expensive?,,yeah,,are they getting rich? HELL NO! The wagon just sat at one shop for 3 years with very little being accomplished,,so I found another painter,, My wagon is at the new painters shop now,,he only had to preform minor body work and no rust repair,, The deal we made was I was to pay for all materials,paint,tape,primers plastic,tack cloths,glaze,sandpaper,in other words everything it takes to finish the paint job correctly. I pay the material bill once a week and when the job is completed I will pay him a price we have already agreed on,,,no suprises. I canhonestly say that it looks like before the job is finished I will have paid MORE for materials than he is going to see in his pocket. And believe me he gave me what I consider a fair price. Don't cry about what it cost if you take it to a guy as a rust bucket and expect it to look like a new car! HRP
The best work I hsave had done lately is the "the guy who works behind his house". One does it full time but only old cars and one at a time (got it back in 3 months) the other does it at night and Saturdays and has redone everything that was done in the previous 9 years and almost finished. Again - it was time and material.
best point made so far- if you only need it to last for a year or two, why have the old finish stripped off, insist on "metal only", and then complain about the price?? People are weird about paint- I know that. Even when you do supply a low-buck sand & shoot, they FREAK if anything from underneath pops, cracks, or otherwise. Even if the shit underneath is 25 yrs old.
Man that comment got me boiling!,,, When I was young and in High School (and years after) I had an uncle that would come over say " I'll LET you work on my car ". Those words are loaded,,"LET"? Through the years he'd come around and I'd work on his car and we'd BS. It continued for several years and then became whole paint jobs. Then when I needed some payment he would get mad and say "You're not a REAL body shop",,I said "I will be if you'd pay me". The last truck I painted for him was entered at the Super Chevy Show in Memphis and it gathered me more business. Afterward he sold it for $6000, and paid me nothing.We had an agreement the cars I do don't go anywhere but WE decide if they leave our stable. He then said don't worry,that that he had another. I told him there won't be anymore. Another "friend" I did work on his stuff all the time ,a Vette, built some engines and show painted his truck. When it came time that he wanted to sell it ,,but wouldn't sell it to me. Again,, He had another one he wanted painted too,,,I told him to get screwed. Yet another "friend" asked me if I was busy,,I said yes,,I was working on my '86 Chevy swb,,he then said he had the same body style and that he had an idea,, "when I sanded my door then I could sand his door and it'd seem like one door,,when I sanded my hood then I could sand his hood,,it'd all seem like one truck" I screamed,,"WTF!! YOU'RE OUTTA HERE BITCH!!!". I've run off MOST of my family and friends over Paint 'n Body. Seriously everyone thinks in a condescending way about how mechanics or bodymen are stupid or a notch above the garbage man,,Fuk them.
I can seriously say "I LOVE YOU GUYS"! Thanks HAMB for being there!! Theres no one here that I can exchange ideas with on topics that are SO important to me.
Been there done that. Cheap, nope. Pain in the ass, sometimes. Tons of labor and hours, yep. End result, priceless.
I think it's great that you can charge that and make a living at it. I don't begrudge anyone their right to make a decent living. Some guy making $10 an hour trying to keep up an old vehicle on the side certainly is justified though in believing it's too much. As I said in another post, unfortunately costs are also not something one can control. There is nothing a painter can do about supplies now running $1500. I recall the first car I painted cost me around $100 in supplies. 79-80 era. Being that an average Joe can't afford $75 an hour he has to try and give it a go himself. First time jobs are not always top quality. It gets him by though. My Pontiac is lacking in many areas. Unfortunately, with kids and bills of my own things get done a little at a time. I'll be somewhere and someone will note that "That's a pretty rare car, it really deserves a complete restoration". I don't say it but I'm thinking "fuck you". I'd like for it to look better now but I can't afford $8K for a paint job so I'll ever so slowly as I find the time, do it myself. It won't be as good as the guy who does it for a living but I'll live with that.
Way back when I was just starting out. Some pics. I built my own shop (and later my house). I poured 525 bags of concrete for the floor in the first shop.
interestnig thread...............i can relate to most of the posts. (yes, i too, am lowering my paint job costs to 300 to stay competitive with the other painters) its funny how painters progress over the years...........from ya, no problem...to fuk off- get out of my shop and take that pos with ya, lol years of takin a beatin on jobs eventually wises ya up if you stay in business. its easy to figure what you need to spray a near perfect car. pretty easy to estimate the costs for materials. you know your gonna need to block it 3 times. the varible is whats under the existing paint(already pointed out many times , i know) i start off real simple with customers. "ya got at least 10 grand to spend" if not , then we cant do biz. if so, then we know its gonna be about 5 grand to scuff shoot, and buy some materials (dependent on car and color, just an example) then i tell them its off to the blaster, then i estimate the body work costs at that time, and they either agree, or dont, and then take the car. also if the car is worth a shit, or two. i dont take a deposit. i find that it makes the customer more comfortable, and they arent all over your ass thinkin you spent their coin on beer and crack.lol when the metal is complete, then i ask for that portion of the money, as it was spelled out in the oringinal contract. take too long to pay, and your car may wind up as mine all said and done id say most of my overalls are 10-15 grand wich is including rust repair, metal and everything else. the cars do come in apart and stripped most of the time (customer takes car to our blaster, pays seperately) we repair and paint the parts, make sure the panels and doors etc fit, then give it back. customers almost always assemble thier own cars ,or take them else where. reason for me getting out of the assy business is the rash of tiawanese parts that get droped off, "oh here are some new parts ,just pop them on instead of the oringinals" one day i danced on a pile of 'em and chucked the whole pile out in the alley(good therapy) most of the time i have no troubles and i'd have to say most of my customers are pretty good people. sometimes you may have to have a couple heated discusions lol skull
Just talking monthlies to run a small shop. Average shop space of 4-5K sq/ft is $.60 $2,700.00 a month. Average shop insurance for general auto is around $450.00 Average electricity usage $850.00 Waste pickup $250 Four employees making $15.00 an hour 40 hours a week, $10,399.80 (month, taxes included) Payroll taxes, 940-941, 1120s and such can average out to another $1,500.00 (generalizing on top of regular payroll tax) That's over $16,000 a month of raw overhead a month. Throw any equipment rentals, permits or other special taxes in with general consumables and repair, time off, benifits, sick days, it all adds up really fast. If you flat rated your shop at $100.00 an hour and you could manage to paint a car in 3-4 hours or so and had them lined up 12 deep each week and could get the customer to supply 100% on all consumables (paint, sand paper, tape) you could paint a car for $350.00
Yes, getting a car painted never is cheap. It is somewhat like that triangle-formula we all know from engine work... ya know "cheap-fast-reliable: you may only have two of those three at a time". Personally, I would have to shell out friggin 800 Euros (that's 1.175 Dollars, guys and gals) for a simple primer job on a car that I would disassemble myself and also provide the primer, thinner, hardener/ activator, degreaser and silicone remover myself at additional cost. No filler, no sealer, no welding, no sanding or buffing, no - nothing but mixing up the primer and aiming their spray guns at some square feet of sheetmetal. May seem a little high to you in the US, but it also seems a little high to me in Krautland as well... and I am already used to 19% sales tax! On the other hand (*yawns*) well, either pay the price, or get yourself a suitable air compressor, do some practicing and get started. On a side note, the calculation of Elpolacko (great username btw) seems to be right on. Machinery, rent and insurance cost a fortune each month.
Why don't you learn to weld for real and come talk to us. You cried and opened a thread on your welds. Got reamed then it got deleted. There is no crying going on here but you. Especially in a thread about paint and body. You had to ship your shit out of town so shut the fuck up.
The Jalopy Journal
