I have guys asking all the time when I'm going to "finish" my wagon. The ones asking obviously have NO CLUE about time/effort/materials in repairing a car that has serious rust issues in literally every piece of metal outside the hood. I commend you guys and I've seen the magic done by people that are talented and dedicated. That kind of effort and skill doesn't come cheap.
there is painting,there is paint & prep and then there is full on body work/repairs to even get to prep standards-that is what I hate when I hear a guy brag about a $5000.00 paint job when in reality it is $4500.00 body work and a $500.00 paint job and he is trying to compare to a $5000.00 lace and flake,pinstriped wild full on job that took 2 weeks just to do THE PAINT... there is a difference.
wtf? I don't hear zman bitchin', just explaining to those not in the know, exactly what goes into a good paint job!
... and then there's Metalshapers. Guys who can make a fender out of flatsheet! Guess how much they have invested in tools/equipment?! Then take a wild guess at how many decades it has taken them to learn their trade? How 'bout training classes at between $350-$500 per day! They have to be able to machine parts/tools and have that equipment and the skills to use them effectively. Wood working equipment, have to be able to build bucks/fixtures, again with accompanying skills. Then there's blacksmithing skills and their tools, because some metalshapers tools can only be built by hot forging. Standard sheetmetal tools, shear, brake, 12"disc sanders, belt sanders, press for forming, pullmax, echold shrinker/stretcher, Lancaster shrinker/stretcher, Englishwheel, Planishing hammer, power hammer, power beader, drill presses bench grinders, Not to mention the square footage to be able to operate all of this stuff efficiently. The tools cost of a single metalshaper's shop is easily equal to a full on production/refinishing facility for 4 employees, including all of their tools. You can't charge enough to cover your investment. Why do we do it? Love of the craft, it's what we do ... Dan Stevens dba, Steelsmith
Those photos inthe first post aren't a paint job... That's some serious body work. I agree people who can't do the work seem to think it's cheap, quick, and easy to do.
when a car comes in for what the customer calls a paint job, it includes that body work, which is what makes it so expensive. We don't just spray over someones crap. Take it to Maaco for that crap. We strip the car to bare metal, we do any metalwork, bodywork, seal, prime, block, paint... and all the little stuff in between. Hmmm... really... I have most of those tools so we can make patch panels and such. I think you are talking a collision shop.
There's a big difference between making patch panels and making a carbody. That's what I'm talking about. Not that it doesn't take a great deal of skill and the tools to go with them, to build effective patches. We are just comparing way different skill levels and the tools that support those skills. Dan Stevens dba, Steelsmith
that's the only way to have control over the quality. When something comes up through the paint the question is never "Who did the bodywork?".
Zman - I'd like to know what you think a fair price is to paint a '55 Chevy 2 door. Just a quality outside re-spray. I understand that you might say, well it's got 5 grand worth of panel/rust repair, that's fine. But is there a way to seperate the cost of the body work vs. just the paint job? I know one goes in hand with another, but I think you'll get my drift. There are people out there that can do really good metal work that can literally drop a car off 99% ready for paint (i know it's rare, but just for this question bear with me). "I'm talking about what if Sibley did the body work, but wasn't much of a painter scenario..." Hope you understand what i'm askin'. -Chris
Maybe somebody already noticed and posted (I'm guilty here of just reading the last page!) but the most recent Hot Rod had a piece about the Factory Five roadster they put together, and prepping the 'glass body for paint. Now, before anybody goes ballistic about this, forget for a second that this is a sports car with old looking skin, non HAMB friendly, traditional kind of hot rod, the point here is the amount of prep and time/money involved to paint what is a new, fresh from the mold body. The articles estimate was 10K for prep and paint if done by a pro. 10K!! And that's pointed out to be a reasonable amount of money. Which, in todays world, it is if you're a check writing car builder kind of guy, which, I'm not. Now, add to that the cost of ironing out 1/2 or 3/4 a centuries worth of dents, rust, abuse and poor panel fit/stampings to begin with, and it's time to rethink what we can or can't do. That right there, is the reason I learned to do stuff myself. The cost of paying someone to do something I can learn to do is far more than the dollar amount. It's about learning new skills, perfecting, or at least, improving on, those I have, and that, as the commercial says, is priceless. Just my 2 cents on the "cost" of a piant job, or building a car in general...
Brian, That's a good point and a shocking amount of money (atleast to me) to do a fiberglass car straight out of the mold from a reputable Cobra replica company. I know my paint jobs will probably never be up to par with Zman's or any of the other notable painters here, but i'm going to try to learn it and do my own atleast. I respect the fact that it takes 10K to get a really nice paint job on a car... but I can't afford that and will learn it on my own. It's all I can afford lol! As long as my car looks good to me, that's all I care about. Unfortunately, i'm a really picky bastard... -Chris
there are an awful lot of questions to be asked still. Is it coming in bare metal? what kind of paint? color? same color or color change? I usually tell that it starts at $4k and goes up from there. lol, I'm not a notable painter. I actually try and keep at least one employee at the shop that is a better paint and body guy than me. There are so many better painters on here than me. I do it but it's not me forte. I do have the insight of having to account for all of it though. And I definitely get my hands dirty but I'd rather be welding than sanding.
4K up, that's all I was looking for. I know I didn't give you a lot to work with, but I was just wanting a very "general" idea for a starting point. Thanks for the feedback! -Chris Oh... and I hear ya about doing anything other than sanding. Sanding/painting cars is going to be hell for me... i'm going to need to learn about something called "patience". I haven't learned it yet... but i'm tryin'...
I know of a Model A sedan 2 years ago. Dropped off at the paint shop on tues, picked up done mon afternoon. $22,000 for a single color no metallic, rub it out yourself when it cures job. Explain to me how the owner didn't get screwed by a painter who's full of himself.
When I took Big Olds to Earl Schieb's shop for his body and paint work one of the first things Mike asked me is show him where all the bodywork that was already done was. Him and I walked around the whole car and every place I pointed out, the nose, the deck, the handles, the bottom corner of the fenders, etc he circled with a gresse pencil. I asked why he was doing that and he explained that his paint job is not going over anyone else's bodywork so he was redoing all of it. Yep, almost 5 years later and I still get mega compliments on his paint job. I always try to explain that's it's really the bodywork that makes the paint job so special.
Oh wait, you forgot BUILDING the eff'n car... there is the frame, the engine, the body... it's ALL about paint, ain't it? Gimme a break !
Could you fill out the details on how you feel this is wrong? Depending on how many people he had on it and how many hours of the day they worked could explain it. Seriously, there is a possibility of two or more guys working shifts where you could add up some serious man-hours on a car in one week. That and the condition of the car, how far apart they took it down can account for way more than you think. Then again, maybe the guy is in high demand because of his work ethic and quality that he can demand such a high price.
either there was alot of work to be done, by alot of guys, or the customer is an idiot, one of the two. as you seem to know the guy, clue us in, lol skull
Damn, all by yer lonesome......I'd come work with ya if ya weren't so far away..... $150.....each......
6 full time guys working 8 hour days for 5 days at $80/hour shop rate + materials = 22,000. Or 4 guys busting their asses for 12 hours a day for 5 days. Either way is way believeable and justified if the job was done. Ever see how many guys are doing body work on overhaulin' probably 30 to get it done in 2 days. Which if you do the math is just about $22,000. Zman, I know how you feel. Here's my coversation today after seeing this: Customer: How much to fix this? Me: where's the rest? Customer: you need to make it. Me: Ok, what does it look like? Have any specs? Have a whole one I can use? Customer: you can look at this one (shows a nice frame). But I can't leave it here cause it's not mine. Me: well that's not gonna help me much then. Customer: So how much you think? Me: I can't say. He agreed to let me get started on it to a point and see where the costs go. That is agreeable. But why do they think that way. I'm not changing a tire here. It is a little more involved. There's no book time for "build a half of a 50 year old Britsh cycle frame from whatever you have" just as there are no x-ray vision body shop goggles. I think too many people think the paint is actually paint and body and that filler is for filling those spaces where metal used to be. I asked a buddy for a body estimate a couple hours ago. Stripped to metal car. Nothing hidden. He gave me a price under $10k with a window of +/- $2000. I was thrilled.
I've been working way too cheaply,,you guys make it clear to understand. One fellow asked about shooting the paint. I know of a few guys here that charge $750 ~ $1000.oo just to fill the gun and shoot the car only,,but lay it down the best they can of course. I asked a local guy if he would rent his booth to me by the half day or day or over night and he said he never has in the past but might consider it. Other than that it's back to cleaning and washing out the garage.
The first thing I thought of when reading this post was if a guy (customer) cant r & r an engine to replace a pan gasket on a vehicle as simple as an old F-100 maybe he's in the wrong hobby. (?) If you cannot or will not do this type of work yourself, you must pay someone else who can. It's that simple.
Either can't do it and/or doesn't want to do it or knows how to do it and doesn't want to do it. In any case it does not make the owner any less of a hot rodder in my book. If its in your heart and your having fun with it then good enough. ....besides, it allows other hot rodders to make money working on somebody elses cool shit and also helps fuel the hobby with badly needed cash. -Bigchief.
I agree with you but as a former repair shop owner I can tell you that if you are taking on a specialty job like that, especially if the truck is detailed and painted, you have to be 1000 times more careful swinging the wrenches and the customer is going to have to pay for that.
Absolutely! Been there, done that.....pop's had a resto shop from the mid 70's thru the 90's and I've worked in other body/resto shops as well over the years. It all takes alot of time to go from trash to treasure and only one second of broken consentration, interuption or clumsiness to undo alot of hard work.
No, thats not crap and yes, you have to pay extra. You sound just like the type of customer that I would've talked to for 5 minutes and sent on his way. If you cannot understand the difference between pulling the motor out of some daily driven beater and somebody's fully painted and detailed hobby car, I can't explain it to you. It takes a lot more time and respect to r & r a motor and not booger up the paint in a detailed engine well then it does to do one in some kids ratty 79 camaro. And someone has to pay for that time. Man, you brought back a lot of memories, I'm sure glad I don't do this for a living anymore.
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