History Why the American Automotive Industry Failed, and Continues to Fail: W. Edwards Deming

Uh, sorry, but buying crappy American cars just to help them which then facilitates their inferior products only serves to prolong and encourage them to continue doing the same. They need some tough love to change their game plan. If they can't win at the game that Americans pretty much invented, then too bad. We need to support and encourage good companies in this country, not bad ones that make bad products. There is no question they can make great products if they really wanted to. No question what so ever. The only question is will they. If and when they do, then I will show them so positive encouragement by buying their products.

Imagine if they had spent only a small portion of their time and effort into working on an advanced car of some sort over the past 10 years instead of draining our wallets with very profitable SUVs, etc. Well, if they had, it wouldn't be too hard to step up the production on those now that we need them. Instead, they were greedy and took advantage of the tax codes and price of fuel to make as much money as they could. So, now that they have done that, they need to dig into their savings accounts and figure out how to regroup. They already have our money and don't need any more of mine until they start making better products.

Also, get off the high horse regarding China too. If American companies could have slave labor today and get away with it, they probably would. I know that is a big stretch of the argument, but probably not as much as thinking all Chinese companies only employ 7 year olds and make them drink acid for lunch. American companies in the late 1800 and early 1900 were not very different from Chinese companies today and they fought tooth and nail the whole way as American workers tried to improve working conditions for themselves. It wasn't easy to get where we are today with our standards and American companies did very little to support it. So, it is not right of them to start bashing China as they try to do the same thing.

American car companies, just design, market and make better shit god damn it and people would buy it. How F'n hard is that to understand? Stop making all that retro Charger, Camaro, SUV bus disguised as a car BS that was great for last year and start making some shit we can use tomorrow. People don't buy shit they needed yesterday. People buy stuff they need now and down the road and the road ain't the same road as it use to be. American car companies are lost and need to figure out how to read the map and get back on track.

 

yeah-- good way to size it up.

 

I don,t quite understand your argument you talk of 18th century practices and then of future cars. How many new cars do you need to buy. I see you have a beef with the big three, but I don,t think the Chinese really give any more of a hoot about quality over profit they are just cheaper.
which is what it boils down to.

 

I notice a lot of comments about how companies have a lack of good leadership, that no real leaders can be found to run things.

We don't have leaders because we have to be politically correct and can't ever offend anyone... kids ball games that don't keep score, telling kids it's okay when they say 2+2=28, and things like affirmative action, women's rights and so on turned on us to force companies to use inferior, unqualified people and never criticize them or be charged with racism, sexism, who knows what... until that shit gets done away with, America is going to continue to fall, because any time anyone tries to lead, someone uses political correctness to take them down, or they use it to teach us to not want to get ahead in the first place. As a result you get a bunch of guys in business only looking out for number one, and not worried about screwing people to do it. And the rest are too stupid and inferior to know what's going on or what the real consequences of their screwups will be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying women and minorities have no place in business - I'm saying only qualified ones do, just the same as everyone else. Those not able to compete with the best need to find something else that better suits their abilities. No one is entitled to things on the basis of race, gender, or sexuality. Those who have superior abilities and knowledge should not have to take a backseat to those who do not, just because the one who does not looks different.

I'm sure a lot of people in the auto industry knew Deming is right, but are unable to do anything about it because they'd have to be politically incorrect and if they get too un-PC, they lose their job.

 

Pleeeease do NOT use Japan as a benchmark for "modern", "efficient", "intelligent","successful","visionary" ANYTHING.

Their biggest strength is their biggest weakness.....TOTAL & UTTER absence of imagination and free thought.

They pay "communication coaches" from the west to teach them "how to get the idiots at the Shanghai plant to do better quality for half of last month's already cheap price".

Their ONLY tool of negotiation is "what discount can you give me, coz we CAN'T increase prices".
"When was your last price increase?"
"we've NEVER had one (looks confused)"
"how long have you worked here?"
"Im NEW here...only NINE YEARS"

If they can't screw-down the supplier, there ONLY other tactic left is to screw-down their own workers, who already work 12-16 hours a day for 8 hours not-exactly-amazing pay.

An auto parts worker (called "freeters".....$12 an hour casual labour IN Japan.....union MY ASS!) hired a truck 6 months ago, specifically to drive into Tokyo and mow down the biggest crowd he could find, then jumped out to knife anyone who came to their aid.......system is working just fine!

http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/mass-despair-permeates-working-class

eg. McT rejected ONE CENT plastic fuel-line clips from the local arm of a GLOBAL, centuries-old parts supplier, coz, after they got one of their 'sub-plants' in China to do inspections, they found ONE PIECE per MILLION that had APPEARANCE defects (an air bubble). So the WHOLE product line was defected, with the intimidation of TOTAL "dis-accreditation" for the supplier's COMPLETE RANGE if they don't spend 5 times what the product is worth to make it meet McT's "Quaritee Standard".

These are the SAME clips you will find under Benz/Audi/VW/BMW etc !

It doesn't take much vision to see that it won't take long for this approach to lead to the end of offering "cheap, high quality" cars.

America's advantage was always

imagination, vision......ART, if you will.

Daring boldness, even if it leads to the occasional failure (Edsel).

Your overly PC, "namby-pamby", "I'll sue you if you don't agree my pig is a beauty queen when I put lipstick on her" modern attitude totally undermines the daring expressionism that MADE America.

In Australia today, when people talk about things being over-legislated....its referred to as becoming "too Americanised".
It was a VERY proud day when Australia's 60-ish struggling Starbux stores announced their 'cessation of business' a couple of months ago.

C'mon America....lets get back to those SIX-CYLINDER 59 Chevy Highway-cruising SPACEships that made young boys ALL OVER the WORLD dream of what COULD BE!

Henry Ford/Thomas Edison/NASA etc could NOT afford the litigation insurance they would need today to DARE to build a DREAM.........THERE's yer problem.

 

The big dreams have died. The life was sucked out of them.



Now the only "dreams" involve a large number of dead presidents.
People know the price of everything,and the value of nothing.

 

Oh yeah, been there and done that... Reminds me of why I was so glad to leave the place 5 yrs. ago

 

It has been proven that Japanese car Co's rule with advertising.

There was a pole in one of the mags that proved the point. They ask questions to car buyers such as which is the most reliable, safest, etc. 90% of the answers were do to perception and wrong. most said Volvo was the safest and most data has them ranked like 3rd. Caddy was the most reliable not Lexus. People buy cars on what is told to them over and over.

Ask the Toyota owner who had to change his tranny and engine upper half with 30k and he will boast at the cost of repairs and tell you how reliable the car is. Ask a Chevy owner with 75k who had to change an alternator and they will say they will never buy an American car again.

That Denso alternator is the best thing when installed in a Japanese car but put the exact part in a US car and it is junk.

Japanese cars were originally bought because they were cheap and that was it. They were so poorly made they couldn't even make them up the hills in N Cali but they sold on price.

Yeah , buy so called save the earth high mile cars from Countries that have zero EPA regs and are polluting the world?? Make sense?? China still selling our kids toys with lead paint???

US engineers designed 90% of the innovations still used in the auto Industry problem is greed from unions and mgt has wrecked our golden child. We are getting beat with our own designs. Yes union workers the rest of us pay for our medical benefits and pay $75k in College tuition to make what you do installing lug nuts. There are workers that deserve their pay but others there for the ride.

Can anyone on here name what cars Ford or Lincoln currently make?? And we are car guys. Ask a 21 year old accountant looking for a new car?? Honda Civic and he doesn't even now why??

We have nobody to blame but ourselves. And yes BUY AMERICAN!!!! when ever you can that is where you live!! Actually buy based on quality that you can see and force these countries to pay taxes and fees when they do not import our products and the playing field will even out.

 

I don't get this "all the money goes back to Japan" stuff. If you think Toyota and others are so profitable, you can buy stock in these companies tomorrow and the profits will go right to YOU. There is no such thing as a foreign or domestic company if they are publicly traded. Sheesh.

 

I keep hearing about unions and bad quality workers and japanese are better and their cars are so much better etc. lets look at some of this. I worked in the nuke power industry I think most would agee they need NRC. gov.regulations. Same as FAA, etc.etc. The unions are hardly affecting things like they used to. They were behind the curve in wages since the 60,s,however they got better benefits, and workplace safety, If the company just paid me a wage, to just cover my expenses, house payment, utilities, transportation, and all that it takes to raise a family today, it surely wudnt be a Mcdonalds wage.I bought a new car in 1972 a ranchero, loaded, it was 5k total with tax,license,and loan interest. My house cost 28 k.nice place in the hills overlooking the city, so divide that cost by my ranchero cost. And as for the japanese cars they didnt have to do research on thier cars , they just gathered up cars from all over the world and copied what they wanted. Nobody built transmissions as good as ours we shared our engineering with them. Today the auto industry is automated, everything is engineered to install in units, and its mostly electronically controlled I have to say the japanese did good with our help for them after the WAR. they built new factories and ours were all old prewar factories. Plus we supplied them with military protection.I was in the Navy. [about 10 yrs after Deming was there]. was assigned to check on jap workers on the ship during o,hauls. Kept noticing a lot of them whispering when i came around. turned out they were 'sippin the saki' down in the holds. anybody ever heard that before? the mess we are in today in our economy is because there was NO ONE WATCHING THE STORE. No regulations or not using the regs we have. If we are ever goin to get out of this mess we shud stop blaming stereotypes of the past. remmber what pogo said, 'we have found the enemy and it is us'!

 

As said whispering campaigns, johny singh from mumbai (now dallas) says his uncle patel swears by his hyundai, so if auntie gupta wants to get a new car go down to the honda showroom. Oh, and tell cousin jitesh that the new toyota pickup has automatic. 25 years of that and here you are today,

 

I read this in a Sydney paper today and thought it fits in quite well.

'And for our final word on the economay, let's go to American investment analyst and entrepreneur Dr Marc Faber, who concluded his monthly bulletin with the following words. " The Federal Governmant is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer it will go to the India. If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexica, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car it will go to Germany. If we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan and none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prositutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in US. I'll be doing my part."

 

That's why you follow the sources listed. It's like reading someones paper, sometimes you need to check where the info came from. Universities just don't want people only using Wikipedia...

 

Deming was a genius........he found a way to teach common sense to educated people. THAT'S why he wasn't embraced in this country!! The "egos" wouldn't allow...

As far as "Buy American".....I took a grievance handling class at the Chrysler Training Facility in Newark, DE when I took a Shop Steward position on my job. It was a little uncomfortable driving my Mazda p/u onto the lot with all of the Rams and Durangos until I noticed that most of the "Union Brothers" were wearing Nikes made in Asian sweat shops. Talk is cheap.......... The leaders of American Industry have sold our soul for greed. Tariffs and Fair Trade agreements AND a consumer demand for quality products would go a long way toward helping but greed on behalf of the Managemant AND the workers have created this mess. LIVE WITH IT!

 

Reading Sunday morning in a Detroit area paper about the propable merger of Chrysler by GM and the worries of Chrysler employees, production workers and even dealership folks who'll likely be out of work if (or when?) it happens. Seems the prediction is GM will "merge" Jeep and maybe minivans, then "merge away" the rest of the company due to redundancy of product. Pretty serious. I've seen the blame game about mergers,takeovers, etc; it's nobody's, but everybody's fault. Unions aren't the only problem but they must share it. When times are good all should benefit, just as equally all should concede when times are tough. Do they? It's almost as if they're parasites feeding on something that can no longer support them, and once they've sucked the life out of what made them fat they'll move to another victim. They've all become so bureaucratic and political that their primary concerns no longer focus on people or product. And I agree with what many others on this post have said - these are NOT car people doing this. Pay raises, benefits etc. are great when times are good and many agreements seem to focus only on the good times aspect of business. But when things slow down, management and the unions need to focus on the same issues. Meaning scaling back if necessary. I'm not close to them but it seems the mgmt and union fatcats aren't the ones that suffer when times are bad, but I bet they always get their "share" of the fat when times are good. All wages, bennies, etc. should be shared appropriately throughout all economic cycles, with none of the mgmt or union folks making more than maybe 10% of the highest paid bluecollar worker - EVER.

Just 2 cents' worth - or wait 1.5 cents. . .

Think I'm gonna plan a trip over to Auburn Hills to the Chrysler Tech Center/Museum, who knows how much longer we'll be able to?

 

good read... the modern corporate mentality reminded me of this thread... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291370&highlight=vice+grips+china

i'm the worst kind of shareholder they could have... i'm the consumer... i'll spend good money if the product is worth good money... outsource sheerly in the name of profit and you'll lose my business.



(it's also interesting to see the compensation differential between japanese ceo's and american ceo's... and then the difference between them, middle management and their workers... all you have to do is turn on the news lately to fire up on all 8 of my cylinders on that particular topic)

 

DEFINATELY true....but these comparisons never take into account the dodgy kickback and 'gift-giving' systems that pervade the ENTIRE Japanese system.
They just elected the head of a concreting dynasty (that got their start using slave labour in WWII) to Prime Minister, in a country where they spend 12% of GDP on concreting over nature in the name of "construction", and NOBODY sees ANY problem with that!

...the US just has more 'accuracy in accounting' and regard for rejecting clearly false figures when publicly reported.

 

I have not read all of the replies to this thread, but my memory seems to be different than most of yours on how Japan get into the states and started selling more cars. I remember the 70s when one could only buy 5 bucks of gas at a time, of course it was on 59 cent per gallon at the time.
I remember the Honda's and Datsun being sold here where not very good autos. But they where small and gas efficiencient and cheap, unlike the big 3 cars. The big 3 tried to match the imports with the pintos and chevettes, etc. which where worse cars than the imports. The imports quality keep going up and the big 3 keep getting worse. But they where years late in trying to make small good cars, they where trying to pay catch up, just like now.

I drive 45 miles to work. I needed a good quality car with good gas mileage. I bought an import, it was made in Japan. I get 45 miles a gallon. It has 83000 miles on it with no issues yet. What American car could I have bought to equal this?

My point is they are just playing catch up again.

 

Except....the largest American-owned beer company is Samual Adams, and most of the whores 'round here (Chicago) are Polish and Mexican.

Cosmo

 

you know what? in 2-3 years it won't make any difference

 

Also interesting to compare the # of "managers" /100 workers.

North American corporations are top heavy with over educated
paper shuffler morons who have never gotten their hands dirty.

Industries used to be run by people who knew that business inside out, because they worked their way up the ladder.

Now they are run by bean counters and stuffed shirts.
The product going out the door is an after thought.

 

The main reason why Detroit failed, is because they are not selling cars to the youths. Most of them like the imports. They are the next generation and if Detroit built cars that the kids would want then they would not be in this predicament.

 

The problem with the U.S. Auto industry is not the unions(I don't belong to one)or even the quality of the new cars(it is pretty good)but the fact that the car companies are now longer run by "Car Guys" but instead by accountants. The bean counters don't give a rats behind about the cars or the people who build them but only about the numbers. There is no passion for the product itself. Seems to be the case for most American companies. When I was a kid in the 50's "Made In Japan" was a derisive term. Deming changed all that in an amazingly short time but he had the Japanese Government backing his ideas. Not likely to happen here. Too much pressure to keep the stock prices up no matter what.

 

Great book. I read it several years ago.

 

think its bad now?
wait til obama starts 'spreading the wealth around'

 

Well, it didn't take long to inject some politics in this...
take your rants elsewhere...hot rods, here

 

I agree. Rick Wagoner, the moron at the helm of GM, is a financial guy, definitely clueless when it comes to what people want...just look at what GM has been offering since he's been at the helm

What GM needs to do is fire Wagoner and turn Bob Lutz loose to create some cars worth owning.

 

After all this discusion, we get this one with no explanation? Last I heard, the world was suppose to end in 2012, guess that is the 2-3 years he's refering to?

The discusion has been interesting. Some great insite and much new-to-me info has turned up here, though I have to wonder about how accurate some of it is.

The bottom line is, being short of funding to start a new American auto plant on my own, there is little I can do to change the course that has been set. I doubt the probability of me buying (or not buying) one new car is going to alter the future auto industry much. The course its on was set many years ago, most of us figured it was just a matter of time before it came to where it is now.

I try to buy American made products as often as I can. This day and age its hard to distingush what is american made and what is not, the company names mean very little anymore and the quality on most things suck reguardless on where its made. Is it more important to buy things "made in the USA, with forgien componets" or something "made elsewhere with american made componets"? I need to buy a pair of safety toed work shoes real soon. I found a pair that have "made in the USA" on the lable that are $100. They are pretty plain and pretty heavy. The "made elsewhere" shoes with the same compasny name on them are $49 and they are lighter weight with a bit of style. Bottom line is going to be which one is more confortable when I try them on.

I hope the politically correct crap goes away soon. You come to my place and you hear the truth. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask, and don't come here. I don't need you. Gene

 

Wow, Deming on the H.A.M.B. Wonders never cease. Guess today was my day for my worlds to collide, I just didn't think work and here would come together. I'll have to go back and read this thread completely since I have about 900 lbs. of quality books on the shelf behind me. As for statistical process control, one thing I have learned in the 15 or so years I've been working with it is that you can't get people who don't want to use it to even understand it. I can pretty well size up a guy and figure out how much to tell him about it after just a few minutes talking about it.

 

if you can get a us made timberland get em they last 3 times longer,stitching, sole, comfort..