A buddy of mine was talking the other day and he was telling me I ought to try and put my 46 ford rear wishbones under my 54 with a panard bar so I could bag it with stuff I had. Would this work? I'm not going to do that probably but I'm just curious if I could do that or would I tear the bones up trying to usem under my car with my bags? My car is a chopped 54 chevy 2dr with a cookie cutter 350 in it and a 350 turbo right now with a malibu rear end. I'm just curious I'm not planning on this if I did do something like this I would probably use ladder bars or a four link.
Hey kutomd heres a novel idea, which might actually work pretty good. How about using what you got under the car now and set up a leaf link set up. This was used onthe SSXR Barracuda in the movie fireball 500. Its a simple setup the rear end was hung on two leaf springs as normal but they were cut in half only using the front half. Then it had 2 coils and panard bar. You could use the bags instead of the coils. Someone with more knowledge on this set up might be able explain it better I checked it out quite a few years ago so the exact way it was done might be different than I remember.
It's a bad idea. Why? Because Ford wishbones don't have enough strength to locate an axle by themselves. Increase the power and weight and it's a sure recipe for broken parts. To achive the same suspension with stronger parts get the rear locating arms from a '65-'72 Chevy pickup. Might have had them on earlier pickups, but that's as early as I've owned. I believe that Industrial Chassis uses a setup like this to good effect. Got some photos that I'll dig up and post when I return home.
Forget parallel ladder bars on the street. Some guys have made trailing arms,similar to the Chevy Truck,using I-beams. Fonzi had some pics on his site with trailing arms and bags.
"It's a bad idea." DefinitelY! People use Ford rear bones as axle locaters because they confuse their function with that of the front ones, which they superficially resemble. The front ones are suspension members, strong enough to cope with whatever happens to them up to the pothole at 85 MPH. They are strong enough even to take the abnormal binding and twisting of a car with them split. They actually survive by forcing the rest of the car to twist, I think! The rear ones are a rolled sheetmetal tube designed to simply brace the torque tube to axle connection, and were not suspension members at all. Most years are not even welded at the rolled joint, and will open up like a sardine can under suspension loads. They were not much used out of their normal use "back when" because they were not usable. They should never be used as active suspension members. Most split use in the fifties was on lowered drag cars with torque tubes to handle the rotational load and no plans for street use to destroy them through twist loads. NO, NO, NO.
Why forget ladder bars on the street? I know of several cars running around with ladder bars. I think if a car the same size as mine running ladder bars with a destroked 400 running 130 mph in the 1/8th mile at our local drag strip I figure they would hold up to my little weak**** motor no harder than I drive it.
I put ladder bars on the yellow deuce with a panhard bar. Coil overs too. Not really trad but it runs fine.
They're plenty strong for a 500HP drag racer. The trouble will be with the stress of going around corners--something's gotta twist to allow that to happen. The ladder bars will likely be the strongest link in the chain. Something else--axle housing, brackets, welds, frame--will absorb the twisting, and eventually fail. Ladder bars cannot move freely in any action that causes unequal motion at the rear wheels or any sort of body roll. Truck bars greatly reduce the binding by their geometry and in stock form absorb the rest in the rubber bushings.
If you don't listen to Bruce Lancaster and Unkl Ian and just want to argue, I suggest you think it out. Lots of experience and real world knowledge. More than you and your friends from the sound of it. There are many threads posted on this. Do some research!
The '35-6 have the weak seam. As a minimum, welditsolid there. I think it would be a very good idea to weld something very stiff and strong, like some kind of tubing, to the back side where it won't show. The Rosemead California early Ford people--Gene Scott, I think?--used to sell a very strong aftermarket version under their PST brand. It consisted of a very strong set of front and rear pieces that closely resembled the '35 Ford end forgings and a length of special heavy-wall tubing to weld in. Sort of a heavy duty replica of '35-36 Ford parts. It probably wouldn't be terribly hard to grind/dissect the tubing away from the Ford forging and build something like this--might be easier than reinforcing that tin tubeing. If I were going beyond flathead/torque tube power levels, I would do something like the front wishbone setup or even replicate torque tube geometry something like what GM did on the 1986 Camaro, but with some kind of big tie rod end at the front. I really dislike the idea of fighting the inherently wrong geometry of split rods, especially on the rear where there's lots more motion than in the front.
Well, jeez, I guess the 36 wishbones on the back of my Cad powered "A" roadster haven't figured out that they should have failed by now. It's only been 40 years or so. Seriously, I am going to relocate the rear-end and build some new locator bars this winter. (Won't say ladder bars as they obviously won't make it through the next 40 years) Did anyone tell So-Cal that their rear-end locating devices won't work on the street?
Thats funny I know of 3 cars here in my town running ladder bars that are driven quite a bit. One I know of has been running ladder bars for about 6 to 8 years with no problems. And another friend of mine has a dodge dakota with ladder bars that have been on the truck for about 2 or 3 years if not longer without problems. A lot of people on here have 4 links under they're cars and those don't have much more flex for twisting than ladder bars. And don't forget I just said I was Curious if it would work. And from some of the drag cars I have seen around here, on tv and from other drag strips all over that I have been to, that the cars are running ladder bars, they twist pretty bad and haven't broken anything.
kustomd first and foremost I cant figure out why the hell you would put 46 ford parts under a 54 chevy? if its just a matter of getting the car lower you can yank a couple of leaves from the spring pack and use a air bag over the rear with a simple bracket. as for ladder bars on the street I too have seen street driven stuff with ladder bars work OK. AND I have seen and worked on 10 second drag cars with ladder bar rears that hook like a mofo on the track.. the problem is in either situation is that that SOMETHING HAS TO TWIST.. SOMEONE has suggested the 65 - 72 chevy truck trailing arms.. My 40 has this setup, as does my pickup.. and if I had the chance every other car I build will have them.. furthermore I know of at least 5 members of the sowhat crew who are running this setup AND another 2 or 3 that have the 65 - 72 truck trailing arm setup in the works.. it does require a panhard bar... and the trailing arms are getting harder to come by in good condition.. but they feature a rubber bushing at one end AND are adaptable to MANY chassis' furthermore... on my 40 I mounted the airsprings approximately 12 inches ahead of the rear axle.. thereby increasing the leverage factor and the amount of "rise" or drop provided via the bags... in my humble opinon.. the 46 ford wishbones are JUNK for what your trying to do..
The Nascar boys use the "Truck Arms" on every roundy round car or race truck they build. I even remember seeing how they "made" thier own versions as to not have to use the originals. A friend, or I should say former friend had this type of set up under his 40 Ford Sedan using coil springs. It worked well as long as you have a "track Bar" or what ever it is supposed to be called. On the rear of a car or truck you don't want to have a system that will not allow for some flex. Kind of like using split bones with a tube front axle. No Flex = Broken parts On the front axle, Split bones and an I-Beam work fine because the I-Beam will flex or twist slightly to allow for the surface variations as you go down the road.
On the truck bar availability, I used to get a catalog from a circle track chassis place that had prefabbed ones that weren't very expensive. They were available with your choice of rubber bushings or I think spherical bearings. Circle track stuff is surprisingly cheap compared to drag oriented parts, and offers all sorts of alternatves to chassis problems. Yes, cars do survive on the street with ladder bars, but either something is flexing itself to death OR everything is made stronger than a bridge girder and the whole car has been turned into an almost infinitely stiff antiroll bar. Either way, IMHO you'd be better off for both handling and durability with something else. The ideal, barely approachable with our primitive antique chassis, is free moving suspension with no resistance except for the control elements(springs, shocks, anti roll bars) that can be tuned to do the right job. A bracket, axle, or frame twisting on every turn is going to be variable, unpredictable, and almost certainly the wrong rate for handling. Truck bars neatly solve most of the same problems of axle control that torque tubes do.
Bruce, to save arguments you probably need to make the distinction that ladder bars are only a problem when they are mounted drag racing style, e.g. parallel with the frame rails. Because Pete & Jakes style ladder bars have the front mounts so close together, the same problems don't apply and they work more like the Chev truck and Nascar style suspension. Here's a practical example I posted a while ago that could probably stand to be repeated. 1. Take a strip of cardboard 6 inches long and fold it into a |_| shape. 2. Sit it flat on a table so it looks like a rear-end with ladder bars (or split wishbones). 3. Push down lightly on the front of the 'wishbones' with one hand and try to lift one end of the 'axle' with the other. See how the other end of the 'axle' wants to lift as well ? And if you hold down the other end of the 'axle', see how the 'wishbones' want to twist ? 4. Now squeeze the front of the 'wishbones' together so they meet, e.g. /_\ and repeat step 3. See how easy it is to lift one side of the 'axle' with this setup ?
Actually the way you are talking about making the ladder bars be in more of a triangle shape is how I was planning on setting them like the trucks. I'm not putting the wish bones under my car I was just asking. And I know what the truck stuff looks like I have 3 of them right now. The only thing I thought about that stuff was it looked a little big for my car but I might try it I buy those chevy trucks with that type set up all the time. They are pretty abundant around here.
[ QUOTE ] The '35-6 have the weak seam. As a minimum, welditsolid there. I think it would be a very good idea to weld something very stiff and strong, like some kind of tubing, to the back side where it won't show. It probably wouldn't be terribly hard to grind/dissect the tubing away from the Ford forging and build something like this--might be easier than reinforcing that tin tubeing. If I were going beyond flathead/torque tube power levels, I would do something like the front wishbone setup or even replicate torque tube geometry something like what GM did on the 1986 Camaro, but with some kind of big tie rod end at the front. I really dislike the idea of fighting the inherently wrong geometry of split rods, especially on the rear where there's lots more motion than in the front. [/ QUOTE ] The 35-36 rear radius rods are welded solid, not like the sheet metal ones used earlier. They are approximately 1/8" wall tube. I ended up using the 36 rear forgings with 40 Ford front wishbone tubes (which are 3/16" wall thickness) and tied them together in the front with a Model A front wishbone yoke. [ QUOTE ] The Rosemead California early Ford people--Gene Scott, I think?--used to sell a very strong aftermarket version under their PST brand. It consisted of a very strong set of front and rear pieces that closely resembled the '35 Ford end forgings and a length of special heavy-wall tubing to weld in. Sort of a heavy duty replica of '35-36 Ford parts. [/ QUOTE ] My brother has a pair of the PST after market 36 style rear forgings. Does any one have any original catalog info on those? Neal
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