I got a Target Master motor in a Chevy van I bought. I was going to use it as a core for a rebuild. On teardown inspection I found 2 sleeved inserts in lifter bores. It was a 4 bolt main but I didnt use it and bought a ZZZ crate engine instead.
I said may have less parts.........actually the Chevy has more head bolts and less valve cover bolts How about it has no right or left handed stuff?
The rebuild was of terrible quality, but many of you missed my point. These hecho en mexico engines are no where near the quality of the regular Chevy V8. This is not a slight on Mexico or Mexicans or anyone except GM corporate br*** who are blinded to all but dollars. If you saw one of the connecting rods you would have trouble recognizing it as a Chevrolet part. There isn't even a balance pad on it. There are milling chatter marks all over the crankshaft. Someone had to take a grinder to the block to get the lifters to clear. None of this happened at the generic auto parts store rebuilders. And yes, Mad Mike, this is the same target motor you can get at GMPP for $1200. Did you ever stop to wonder why they were so cheap?
ive sold parts for almost 30yrs and have sold more than my share of reman. engines. i wouldnt give you 50.for all of them. the early built ones were alright. not the best but i didnt have very many returns.after about 85 seems that for every 10 i sold 7 came back. not good odds.i torn down a few that i took home just to see why we were getting so many comebacks.it was just like cuzn said. a standard hole here and next to it a .60 hole.bearings looked like they never saw oil.lifter bores that were way over.some one quit caring somewhere down the road.but the best ones we sold came straight from gm.not a independent rebuilder. but the all time worst engine gm ever built imo,is the 267. and maybe the 302.i put 2 of those 302s all over the highway in about 1 yr. apart.each time the bottom end came apart.and below 4500 rpm.
And the sbc weighs about 100 lbs more than a small block ford...the rod bolts sure are much bigger on the chevy.
Back when I did "regular" mechanic work, none of the major rebuilders would accept the Mexican engines as cores. They are engines made for a disposable world.
The new (not rebuilt) Chevy 350 replacement engine I bought from GM in 1997 gave me 229,000 miles of great service in my OT van. I sold the van to a guy who used it to pull his roundy-round racecar trailer. That engine said Hecho en Mexico on it. However I will admit I never tore it down to see why it ran so good.
I must be a lucky guy! I have one of those "Mexican motors", it has an Advance Auto "Plate" riveted to the left side of the block, near the motor mount. It's a 350 smallblock, that doesn't use or leak any oil and starts up every time, and is now pushing 100,000 miles! It's in my daily driver (85' Chevy Stepside) and runs an Edelbrock manifold and 600 Holley carb., plus dual exhaust with Hi-way gears. However, if I was going to install another "Potent" 350 in my 39' Ford or just Beef it up, I'd probably use (Or Build) a Genuine Crate motor. For now, it serves the purpose. PS: If my truck sends a rod through the hood, I let "HAMB" know!
i'm not sure of exactly what motor we are talking about and where is was made and/or rebuilt by....but i have installed MANY of the new GM 350 260hp crate motors and never had any issues. yes , there are NEW and not rebuilt by GM in Mexico and not sold at O'Reillys/autozone/etc the Target motor was also a GM product.....i don't know how O'Reilly/Autozone got ***ociated with it. if it is indeed a Target motor..then the crude castings would be GM fault..correct? this makes absolutely no sense to me: "Today I had the displeasure of taking down a Chevy target 350. Worse yet, it was an Autozone/O'Riley's/Advance rebuild. This is one of those mexican motors you can buy for under $1500 new. No wonder. Very crude castings, rough machining, flashing everwhere, no ports even close to matching, and rods that looked like you carved them with a dull knife." so..what i really would like to know who made/rebuilt this motor? how can it be a rebuild AND a new motor? not trying to cause problems , just want to get the facts straight
Ive seen some bad shucks ford crate motors 1st hand..... Btw in my opinion the worst gm motor was the 305, due to it's ****ty bore to stroke ratio and no worthwhile parts. Atleast the 262 had the super short stroke 3.1" LG crank that has possabilitys
Did you ever see a 307 that had rounded cam lobes and cracked heads, that ran. We (dealer) would slip in a new cam and lifters, drain the oil and change out the heads under warranty. I do not recall EVER pulling a pan to clean out the metal that came from the cam........
They were or are marketed by GM but not done in a GM facility. The mexican stuff that comes out of the GM plant down there is really nice stuff. One thing to think about is that there are engine shops here in the good old US of A that just hire junkies and winos off the street. The same in mexico or any other industrialized nation in the world. I have never pulled a target motor down, I do know of a few that are long mile motors. But now I know that I don't want to do the extra work to make on right. Thanks for the info.
I took apart a 78 Chevy 305 that was given to me by a friend....I rebuilt it instead of the 262 small block that was in my 80 Caprice...the 305 was very rough everywhere...excess casting flash on the block and the crankshaft had razor sharp edges on the counterweights...the ports in the heads looked to be different sizes and were crudely finished...I spent about $300.00 buying all rebuild parts and gaskets from JCWhitney's catalog...all no name bearings, cam/lifters, oil pump,etc....bottom line??...this was one of the best running engines I have ever owned !...lots of crisp throttle response, decent gas mileage, and it ran quiet...no knocks or smoke...I ran the wheels off that Caprice with the "****py" 305 and it never let me down...If I had used High Dollar Quality parts, it wouldn't have run any better....that's the beauty of the small Chevy V8....they run on whatever you throw at them.
I bought a high nickel block from a fella in the '90s. It was a mexican 4 bolt block. The fella sold it to me because it had lost the lower end at speed and was going to need align boring. I can't say that they polished the lower end but the flashing was removed. He said that it had never been apart.
I bought a used "goodwrench" 350 from the junk yard. I pulled it completely apart and it is in excellent shape. The only thing I didn't like about it was the small intake valves and large combustion chambers. And considering the number of core shift blocks that I've seen, and piss poor casting and machine work on some of their heads, I must admit they got it right on this one. I've seen 2 sets of 305 heads where the chambers in the center were cast reversed. If not for a cutter being run down through it for the intake valves, it would be impossible to get them in. Also 250 I6 with a single barrel cast on intake manafold. I've seen some of them with one side or the other's runners partially blocked with cast iron which amounted to about 20% of the opening.
If it was some auto parts store rebuild then it was no longer a "Target 350" as that was a GM engine program starting back in 1981 and they weren't rebuilds, but new motors made at GM Mexico. Later they were phased out at the Goodwrench line replaced them.
A couple of points of clarification here. Yes, this is a target motor. It has the old style rear seal, 4 bolt mains, and I guess powdered rods, though they didn't look llike the powdered rods in the 96 LT-1 I ***embled a few days ago. The bore and journals are still standard. Why it was rebuilt in the first place is a mystery to me. The second tear down came when the owner saw metal when the pan was pulled. I saw it, too, under and on top of one of the pistons. I have not seen where this metal came from.......yet. The engine is obviously a low miler. These engines may run fine and for many miles. While I in no way consider myself an expert, I have taken apart engines and wondered how they ran at all. What I want to re-emphasize is the quality or casting and machining is not like any I've seen before. My experience with engines has been mainly with hot rodding. I was in the boat business for many years and have had blown up marine big block Chevys stacked like cordwood in my garage. I've also rebuilt small block Chevys, big block Fords, flatheads, Chryslers, and I'm sure others I'm not thinking about over the past 20 years. These target motors aren't in the same league as any I've seen in the area of quality control.
i'm a little concerned about the Mexi-motors as well----if you have time you can read about my own "personal tragedy:" http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=515872 But what other alternatives are there in terms of new chevy small blocks? The vortec L31 (part #'s 12530283 and 12530282) look great on paper, but i think they are also made in Mexi?
As far as I know, any part on a Ford will fit either side including everything from the lifters to the valve covers.
The newer the block ***y the more casting flash and irregularities I see. I have a standard bore 350 marine block from the early 70's that is absolutely beautiful. Minimal flash and just a great looking block. Most of em need a good bit of de-burring. I flogged a 267 HARD and the guy I sold it to loved it. Overheating and low oil is ultimately what kills any engine, no matter how it was built. Been many years since I took one apart with just "normal" wear. peace
A friend of mine bought a rebuilt SBC 400 from a chain parts store several years ago. The first time he went to start it, it locked up. He pulled the heads, and two center pistons on one side were full of antifreeze. They wanted to replace it, but he was able to get his money back. I'd never buy an engine from one of those places.
Hot Rod did a "Best engines ever built" article a few months back. And they nailed it... great article. Sam
Here's the list... And what you have to consider is... they are looking at it from a hot rodders perspective. The only reason the flat head made it into the top 10 is because of the "Cool Factor" and "Historical Significance"... They don't look at it from a "Traditionalist's perspective" or brand loyalty. They looked at "Performance Potential", "Historical Significance", "Looks Cool", "Affordability to build today", "Easy to work on" and then tallied these factors to come up with the list. Despite the ****py Mexican motor you pulled apart... the SBC is king. It's won more races than all the other American made v8's combined... and holds the top speed record for a piston/wheel driven vehicle at 462mph... Winner winner chicken dinner. # 20 60 to 80 GM 215,300,340,350 ci. # 19 68 to 84 Caddy third gen 368,425,472, and 500 ci. # 18 49 to 64 Olds 303,324,371 and 394 ci. # 17 53 to 66 Nailhead 264,322,364,401,and 425 ci. # 16 65 to 90 2nd gen Olds 260,307,330,350,400,403,425,and 455 ci. # 15 64 to 03 Chrysler LA series 273,340, and 360 ci. # 14 67 to 76 Buick big blocks 400,430,and 455 ci. # 13 68 to 97 Ford 385 series 370,429, and 460 ci. # 12 97 to present Chevy LS 4.8,5.3,5.7,6.0,6.2 and 7.0 litre # 11 70 to 82 Ford 335 series 302,351, and 400 ci. # 10 32 to 53 Ford Flatties 221,239, and 255 ci. # 9 58 to 76 Ford FE 332,352,360,361,390,406,410,427,and 428 ci. # 8 55 to 81 Pontiac 265,287,301,303,316,326,347,350,370,389,400,421,42 8, and 455 ci. # 7 51 to 58 Hemis 331,354, and 392 ci. # 6 58 to 65 Chevy W series 348,409, and 427 ci. # 5 58 to 77 Chrysler B/RB 350,361,383,400,413,426, and 440 ci. # 4 62 to 01 Ford 90 degree 221,255,260,289,302 and 351 ci. # 3 64 to 71 Dodge Hemi 426 ci. # 2 65 to 09 Chevy big blocks 366,396,402,427,430,454,496, and 502 ci. # 1 55 to 03 Chevy small block 262,265,267,283,302,305,307,327 350,400. Sam
Does GM make any small blocks in the USA anymore? I'm not sure if I heard somewhere that they moved all the production to Mexico... It would be nice if it weren't true. I wouldn't sweat running a NEW made in Mexico crate, had good luck in an old suburban we had... It was a warranty replacement. After 250k uneventful miles, My old man and I rebuilt it (my first project engine over a decade ago)... I recently put a hotter top end on it and it now lives in my current o/t truck. With that being said, getting a re-manufactured water pump from a parts store makes me nervous sometimes, let alone a whole long block... Yikes. Makes me feel bad for the counter guys who have to deal with the rightfully pissed customers...
,flashing everwhere, Very crude castings, rods that looked like you carved them with a dull knife, Poor original quality; ,flashing everwhere, Very crude castings, rods that looked like you carved them with a dull knife, Poor original quality; ,flashing everwhere, Very crude castings, rods that looked like you carved them with a dull knife, Poor original quality; I like how everybody responds while totally ignoring what the original poster is referring to and has stated. GM Block =Flashing Everywhere, GM Castings, =Junk, GM Rods/Castings = s****, GM Original Parts/Block ="Poor original quality" "Ports Aren't Close To Even Matching Up" Well guess what? Yes, GM Built those blocks, rods and casting. -The thieves at GM cast and 'built' them for their first go around and if lucky, they lasted 20 to 60,000 miles at which point the cam lobes disappeared and the hone/rings wore off. That's when the local Thieves stepped in and 'Rebuilt' those poorly cast original equipment cam lobe eating oil burners using "All Pre-Used Genuine GM Goodwrench Blocks/Castings/Parts". GM came up with the Blocks, Rods, Poor Quality Casting and Mismatched Ports Not to mention no nickle or chrome in the block and cams that lobs still to this day disappear into thin air. I agree with Cuzncletus, Even up here in Canada, our local thieves take over after GM has put their hands in your wallet and do the exact same thing... They take those 50,000 mile dead GM engines, you know, the ones with the ,flashing everwhere, Very crude castings, rods that looked like you carved them with a dull knife, Poor original quality; And do the same thing as they do in Portland, St Paul, Detroit, Boston and the Bronx, -They throw them back together using the original/old GM blocks, heads, rods and even with the odd cam that hasn't burnt it's lobes off yet, and put in the cheapest set of rings and gaskets they can find and sell them back to the customer at which point they will -at least- last until the Goodwrench Cam eats its lobes and/or the lack of nickle/chrome in the GM Castings causes the cylinder walls and rings to prematurely start burning oil or 25,000 miles whichever comes first. Yes, Up here in Canada, We Do Not import cheap 'Rebuilt' GM Engines across 2 countries to employ Mexicans, No, the local thieves are very happy to throw together original GOODWRENCH Engines/Cams/Heads/Rods and extract money from your wallet just like General Motor DID in the first go around right here in Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton and St John's. .
A Very Wise Man Once Spoke Out Against General Motors and Their "Invention" of Planned Obsolescence; "(some think that) The object of the Business ought to be to get people to buy more Frequently and that it Is Bad Business To Try And Make Anything That Will Last Forever. .."(for) We Cannot Conceive How To Serve The Customer Unless We Make For Him Something That.. .. Will Last Forever" Some Years Later, The Much Loved Harley Earl Confessed To Putting His Hands In Your Wallet By Stating " Our Big Job IS To Hasten Obsolescence, In 1934 The Average General Motors Car Ownership WAS 5 Years. Now [1955] it IS 2 Years. When It Is One Year We Have A Perfect Score" So in Harley Earls Own Words, The "All New SBC" is the ultimate in Planned Obsolescence For The 50's and Beyond! This statement rings even more true today when you look inside any of those Canadian, Mexican and/or Detroit Built GM GOODWRENCH Engines and find that "Very crude castings, rough machining, flashing everwhere, no ports even close to matching, and rods that looked like you carved them with a dull knife. Cam Lobes Gone, Absolutely No Metallurgy (that's Nickle/chrome) - Why somebody be bothered to number the rods and caps is beyond me because not one matched. Poor original quality" Oh and lets not forget the cam lobes that disappear and caused 20,000,000 new car/truck owners to revisit General Motors -just after the warranty had ended- (what a coincidence?) where you find out that General Motors will Again put their hands in your wallet to the tune of a fresh "Quality Rebuilt -Goodwrench- Replacement Engine". Somehow I suspect that those that ignored the original poster's Very Clear Statements are also exercising their right to ignore Automotive History. -My Business Administration Teacher used to call it "Selective Illiteracy" -Over and above Cuzncletus' very astute observations and along with various Automotive Text/History, Just my humble opinion -and I am opinionated but fortunately I'm not blind to Economics or Automotive History and neither to the fact that Even Up Here, Canadian Produced GM parts/blocks are a****st the worst cast, poorest quality planned obsolescence that for better than 75 years has barely been on par with CHINA. Even Though Harley Earl Clearly Stated That In 1955 GM Was Reaching Perfection in General Motors Long Hard Battle in "Hastening Obsolescence" -(No wonder Henry Ford wanted that shyster removed from Ford Property by Security, (He probably though that Earl was going to make one last grab into the company safe while he wasn't looking)). .
The Jalopy Journal
