Would anyone be interested in a new racing class?

I see a THEM! TulsA car in the running!



There it is. A cream-puff, dream powerplant.

Truly a force to reckon with. That monster, I love to call "The Sewer Pickle", came stock with a 263 straight 8 and a manual tranny.

You punks is goin down!!!

 

I guess we need to seewho is REALLY serious and who's not.
If we have enough interest maybe Ryan will have an area where we can hash out the details.

So....who's really game on this deal?

 

Man, I wish I had some money and space. If any of the CO guys decide to build an FED gimme a hollar and I'd be willing to help.

 

I might even go for this. Is their a limit on engine years? Are newer ones ok?

 

I'm down with it, especially if we start in 2006. And I already have a tow vehicle

By the way anyone else follow the Grassroots Motorsports Challenge, itlooks like they have some good rules we could use. I have a few friends that did it and had a blast...

 

this has got me really excited. smittyshotrods and i talked about this very thing all the way back from Mokan last summer. He thought his dad could build us a decent motor. Bellm has the truck cab we need for a tube framed altered ....

I would like it open to less than 330 cubes and sbc's allowed. Mostly because thats what i've got. I don't care one bit about the class rules or winning or losing.... it would be strictly for grins. That is enough motivation for me.

 

So a car like the BFD could participate? No?

It has a .060 over 283.
Stock heads.
Stock block.
Stock cast crank, rods...

And runs 10.40's right now on alcohol.

Now this motor is not "built to the hilt"... it was put together 35 years ago... and we just freshened it up with a new cam and the injection.

I would expect dragsters to be at least running in the 9 second range... so build safety into it accordingly.

Back to the flathead powered car... that is attractive to me because I have the stuff, it's CHEAP... and we will build it so we can swap in a Model A banger motor and a T body on it to run at the two hill climbs here in California. That and Palmdale once a year and we're all booked up.

So... do we want to continue on with two separate discussions for all the cars people are wanting to screw together? Like I mentioned above?

I think if we do that, we will get more people jazzed about doing SOMETHING!

Ryan, can we have a forum to hash this stuff out in? Maybe you can fill us in on The other HAMB Drags that you're planning on having? I think ideally we'd have an East Coast, Midwest, SouthWest and NorthWest HAMB Drags...

Then maybe a "National" event?

The thing is... if we build our cars to be "period" AND be NHRA legal... we can host events all over the USA... and people don't have to be concerned about having a car that is only useful once a year.

Sam.

 

Sam, I see your car in the altered class.
That same motor would be welcome in a dragster class.

 

Yeah, I'd definately be down for building one for '06! I even talked to a guy at work about it today. He claims I'm bad for his marriage.

But I really, really think we need to limit the dominators in the class before it becomes an issue: one or two stout SBCs with all the intakes and heads available to them will make the Buick Straight 8, Slant 6 and everything else but the Hemi a waste of time. Everybody says it's just for fun, but when the same three guys win every time with a small block Chevy, it won't take long for the same three guys to be the only ones having a really good time. Pretty soon you'll end up hearing "Yeah, I could run that fast if I built a small block Chevy too!" and then they DO build one. And when the Nailhead or the Slant breaks, it's replaced with a SBC because--as has been said already--EVERYBODY has one. Hell, I've got a '57 283 with date-coded '57 Fuelie heads and 2x4 out in my garage, but I'd rather run a nailhead.

The Goodguys stuff was set up originally to be just exactly what we're talking about here. When there are very loose rules, with a "we're just doing it for fun, run what ya brung" attitude, it always, always always without exception spirals into huge $$, the same two or three engine types, and the original guys get fed up with it and drop out. Just look at the following: Fastest Street Car. 10.5-inch Tires. Pure Stock Drags. Factory Appearing/Stock Tire. Real Pro Street. The list goes on and on--this is just the recent stuff.

And for the SBC engines, are cylinder heads going to be limited by casting date, or are we going to allow guys to buy a set of cheap swap meet Dart II cast iron heads? Hell, those are so common now that Double Hump and Fuelie heads aren't worth messing with except to casting-number restorers.
How about full roller rocker arms for the SBC or SBF? Dirt cheap and common, anywhere you care to look. Are we going to allow them? I've got two sets in the garage now. AND a set of COMP Cams roller tipped stamped steel Magnum rockers.

Why would someone build a 312 Y-Block to get shut down by an injected 8,500rpm SBC three times a year?

As for transmission, yeah, that could be kinda dicey, but if adapter plates aren't available already, they can be made. Same for stick bellhousings. I'm sure there are adapters for Y-Block to C4/C6, Nailhead to Chevy, etc.

For me, it's like playing poker. I like to play Penny poker, no max bet, 5-card draw or Texas Hold 'em dealer call, nothing wild, end of rules. But those are pretty limited rules.
The neighbor likes to play $20 buy-in, winner take all, dealer's choice for the game played during each hand. One hand we're playing Texas Hold em, the next hand 7 Card Stud, then we're playing Blind Man's Bluff, then Oklahoma something that's like Texas Hold 'em but different, the one after that we're playing Who The Fuck Knows What But I Can't Look At My Cards AND I Still Have To Bet. The result is that because we don't have clear, easy, very limiting rules, the same couple of guys get the whole pot at the end of the night, the rest of us payed $20 to get frustrated at having to constantly figure out a new strategy, new rules, etc. A couple guys--the winners--had fun for cheap. The others didn't lose much (really, what's $20 over a few hours and a few beers), but we didn't have too much fun either. It wasn't a fun game with bench racing and bullshitting going on between and during the hands, it was constantly trying to keep up on the rules and strategy.
Here's the important part: It was a fun night out the first three or four times we got together, but after that, why do I wanna keep giving the neighbor $20?
I'd much rather play on a level field (all obsolete junk with crappy head and intake manifold technology), than try to "compete" (yeah, it's all for fun, but so's the $20 poker night) using a fun obsolete engine against a guy with a 283 running Dart heads and 1.6 full roller rockers with and 2x4 tunnel ram that he pieced together for less than $1000 because all that stuff is available at any swap meet or classified section for dirt cheap.

If you start checking casting dates, then maybe--but what year are you going to hold it to? And what about rockers, heads, intakes, etc.?
I'd LOVE building and running a 264-inch '54 Nailhead in an Under 300-inch class. Even at the expense of building a more powerful, cheaper, more common 322 Nailhead. But it would stop being fun pretty quickly if I kept getting beat by 10 guys running tunnel-ram Dart head 283s or similar 289 Fords. I'd have a blast running against an Olds Rocker, Stove Bolt 6, Slant 6, Straight 8, Y-Block or Flat Head. And it wouldn't bother me a bit to lose to those engines, because to make them fast, the engine builder had to be an engine BUILDER, not assembler of common parts.
-Brad

 

It was a Rambler, not a stude......and I have no idear how it got there.
I like the idea, Root. I think a 317 Poncho engine with single carb would kick ass in a 800 lb chassis!

 

Brad, do you type really fast or just type for a long time? Just kidding....
I am listening. I just can't see the logic in holding guys back by building a motor that will be more expensive and harder to find parts for.

If a guy wants to run in the under 300 cid class....the closest SBC would be a 283 bored .125". I would run a 270 CID SBC. If a guy is running a bigger cubic inch orphan motor.......am I still at an advantage?

We could run the way they did in the pre-bracket days. Cubic inch per lb.
Then you could run a guy with a bigger motor but he would have to run some sort of ballast and it would still be heads up.

I know some guys feel that the SBC would dominate but actually the hemi design is capable of being king. It used to be.....

As far as date codes I would say it needs to be a fuelie head or simialr head. No aftermarket heads GM only. No bowties. If we are gonna try and keep it "vintage" World Products wasn't around so they shouldn't be in the mix.

I would say internally, you could use roller cams,rockers and rev kits.
Carbs could vary ....injectors would have to be in their own class, or would they?

I love this idea I just don't want it to turn into a pissing contest. It's all about fun. If the same 3 guys win every event, put em in their own class and let em run each other... I dunno.

 

I drew up a car last year that I think would be a hoot to drive. It was powered by a 371 Olds, had Chevy frame rails like Garlits' 1st digger, a stock Model A axle, spoke wheels up front, pie crust slicks out back... minimal roll bar... PG tranny (cause everyone will be running one) and an aluminum body around the driver.

It looked period perfect.

Would probably run in the 11's

And would be fun as HELL if other guys built them.

But it would get the shit waxed off of it if it ran anything with any SBC motor.

Maybe Chris' idea of running weight per cu in could work... block and heads must be factory cast pieces... but damn, the SBC motors would kick the most ass.

I mean... a 292 Chevy could be built to run in the 8 second range with ported Camel Hump heads, roller everything and injection on alcohol. YOU might want to use some old outdated roller cam... But I'm going with 14.5:1 compression, heads by Wes King, a new Roller Cam... and a Hilborn injector set up by Gene Adams... should run in the 8 second range in a 1200 pound chassis.

What I am getting at is... the closer this thing is to being even... the more fun people will have. I personally had the time of my life with the BFD at MOKAN two years ago... but it also SUCKED because there wasn't anyone there to race.

Sam.

 

This was on the NHRA Summit Import site.....It has some info that could pertain to us.

Q. Why don't you have any engine displacement or pounds per cubic inch rules?
A. The minute a displacement rule is imposed, even if it is a simple "maximum displacement" limit, all qualified cars must be verified BEFORE first round of eliminations. We do not do the winner and runner up in NHRA, we make sure all the qualifiers are verified before eliminations. There are only two methods of checking displacement at present. One is to pull a head and physically measure bore and stroke. The other is to use the P&G meter, or "pump" as we call it. This requires disabling the valves on a cylinder and turning the engine over. While this is a simple deal on a two-valve, pushrod engine like a small-block Chevy, it requires physically removing the cams on most overhead cam engines. Neither option is particularly appealing with an overhead cam engine, especially in the dark on a Saturday night in the pits. Eventually, we will have displacement rules, it is inevitable. But hopefully some innovative engine builders out there will help us develop new, user friendly tools with which to enforce them.

 

I still think SBC are the cheapest way for guys to have fun............my .02 worth.

 

Now see, that makes my point perfectly: it's relatively easy to run tens with a simple small block Chevy, and building the Front Engine diggers to run in the 9s is exactly what will happen. It's already being mentioned. Hell, with heads, new cam technology, full roller rockers, etc. 8s should be within reach. Think about it: fully built 283 spinning 9-grand with a Tunnel Ram, roller cam, Dart heads, 1.6 full roller rockers, etc. All readily available for cheap at a swap meet or classified section near you. It's not a stretch to have that happen. But a FED with a Nailhead or Straight 8 won't run a 9 unless it's falling off a cliff and you clock it before it hits the canyon floor. Again, yeah it's all for fun, but who really wants to be running 11s with a 264 Nailhead or 225 Slant 6, when the guy in the other lane is running 9s all day long? For a fraction of your build cost. I'd love running the vintage engines, with old technology and vintage speed parts (or recent parts for the vintage engines), but if I wanted to compete against small block Chevy engines, I'd find an existing class in NHRA, AHRA or any of the numerous fledgling groups, and I'd be racing against them. With a competitive SBC between my frame rails. Why not build a FED the way you want, with whatever engine you want, and just go bracket racing? If it's just about putting a vintage engine in a vintage style dragster, you can do that and bracket race against other similar displacements. I think the purpose here is to get vintage engines and dragsters to run against one another, on a fairly level playing field.
If you want to compete with a SBC (or SBF), there's no shortage of venues. Why create another one?
-Brad

 

Oh... and I may have said this before... but, if we wanted to have some fun, we would contact a company such as Kragen/Shucks/Checker and have them sponsor events around the country. They would show up with 10 motors, all built identical. The participants would then be allowed to swap a cam, intake and headers onto the "spec" motor... and then drop it in their "rail" and then they would all run "heads up".

We could even do that here... say, everyone who wants to participate buys a $750 re-man engine from their local auto parts store... runs anything they want for cam, intake and headers... all the cars must meet a minimum 1500 pound weight with driver... and then we HAVE AT IT!

Sam.

 

I don't know what to tell ya Brad. I have a hard enough time buying parts for a SBC. Try and find a roller cam for a 264....

I would love to see it but the first hurdle you'll hit is the money that will be required for one of these builds. 2500 is not an unreasonable figure for a nailhead build...would you agree?

I am trying to create a class amongst friends where guys can build a car on the cheap and have a good time. The more stringent we get (which can be a good thing) the more the cost goes up and then no one will want to drop 10 grand in a car that won't be half as reliable or competetive away from the hamb events. I know that there are tons of other venues out there but none of them focus on factory parts...they are a run anything class,(which equates to 1-800-Summit) therefore making it virtually unobtainable for the common man. That's where the cubic dollars come into play.

 

Actually, I do type pretty quickly!
Hey, I don't wanna be the asshole that takes over your post/idea--I really love the idea! I've talked about just this very thing with guys for a long time. I'd also like to build a La Carrera '54 Buick--and the class I'd like to run is very limiting: stock displacement, stock chassis, upgrade to front disc brakes, up grade cooling and electrical, coil over shocks allowed but that's about it. The rest is geared to safety. That means my '54 Buick with the 322 would compete on a level playing field with the big Lincolns, Chrysler Hemi cars, etc. etc. etc. Dinosaur Technology!

The SBC is the cheapest engine in the world to build, no doubt. And HP per Cube per Dollar is also the best ratio in the world.
The initial engine build would be more expensive, but in the long run I think it'd be cheaper because parts aren't going to break. But also, I don't see guys spending really big bucks building a 264 Nail or the other orphans, because they aren't going to feel the need to invest in roller cams and other exotica to compete against a SBC.

Now, limit the SBC to 283 plus .060-over, factory Power Pack head castings and a rev limiter in the MSD box at, oh, 6,000rpm, and then yeah, we're back to square field.
I'd enjoy going over this more with you, if I don't piss you off with my Anti Small Block whining! Hell, if we really got something going, we could race at Mokan, and I know there's a Nostalgia race in Atlanta and Bradenton, FL and I've got connections at both tracks so we might be able to work something into those programs...

-Brad

 

All I can say is those of you who have not attended the HAMB Drags, need to. All this talk of money, bragging rights blah blah blah..........................this is a pretty tight group, any ringer that thought they could roll in and take the cake will be sorely disappointed. Like when the biggest draw of the first drags was the 3,452 runs Tuck and Rocky had in the two Ramblers.

I feel pretty damn proud to have been a part of this board and the drags, we are the future........................HAMB total world domination!!!!!!!!!!!! BUWAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAH

BTW< I have those nasty NOS M/T pistons and a nice 265 block waitng for my digger

 

You can really tell the guys who race or have raced from the ones who haven't on here.

Root your idea is a swell one that could prolly never come to fruition simply because there just isn't enough honesty, integrity, and pure love to make it happen. That need to win will win out and unless you hang out with a whole lot of guys with money to burn who can afford to drop cash into a slow car to just have fun it just won't happen. For most folks to justify the expense you have to be able to use the car on a regular basis and stand a chance of winning. I hear what you are saying about building them to meet safety regs but the average non racer just doesn't have a clue what it takes to build a race car and doesn't have the parts lying around. I tried to build a FED from the ground up the way you do a hotrod and it ended up costing me way more than I expected and I didn't finish it. I bought a FED much like what you describe here. In fact it would prolly have been a perfect fit. 283 injected on alcahol, nothing fancy in the motor. It cost me $8500 to buy it and I put another $3000 in it. That isn't cheap, not when you consider the fact that a lot of guys on here have way less than that in their whole street car. Saftey stuff costs a lot! The driving suit I had to wear in my FED was $700! That didn't do a thing to make the car go faster at all but it sure takes it's toll on the budget. Racing is not cheap. Have any of you guys priced Cromeolly? You could do a chassis in mild steel but then the guys who use chromeolly will have a weight advantage unless you put in a weight minimum. There is lots more to think about than just motor size.

Oh and for those of you who mistakenly think that the guys with most money crowd won't be a part of this just look at Jr. Dragsters. Great idea to start with. What could be cheaper and easier than a lawn mower engine in a little dragster? You are not competitive in them now without spending $15,000!!! Yeah you read that right. Digitron data recorders, $5,000 alcahol engines, $1,500 dollar front wheels the list goes on and on. There is no money in racing unless you are a pro and even then it's break even a lot of times. People do spend money for bragging rights. Same kind of folks lift their 4 wheel drives 5 feet in the air. Can't do a damned thing with it but it's higher than everyone elses!

I think the closest you could come to having a grass roots dragster class that didn't get out of hand would be to make everyone buy/build the exact same thing like the old IROC road racing class. Perfectly matched cars on a strict set of rules. Entry price would be very similar for everyone and the results would be mostly up in the air each race bringing it back down to the drivers skills instead of the engine builder/tuners! Sam is closest to that with his Kragen idea.

Of course you could always go to an index or bracket set up and then all the racers are evenly matched! That's where you will find me, cause I at least want the CHANCE to win weather I do or not I always have fun.

 

NHRA at the top level is heads up racing just as nascar , world of outlaws etc. are at their level.........., all their lower classes have some kind of handicapping........

this issue has been hashed over by more drag racers than you can imagine, BUT, if you are going to run a heads up class of racing then you have to have basic rules , tire size, wheel base , cubic inch , and weight. with some sort of safety tech applied to the racers.

thats heads up racing, if the SBC dominates the class then everybody that wants to be competetive will be running one, if an olds or nailhead whoops ass then everybody will be looking for one of them before the next event.......
once you start allowing someone to run aftermarket heads because they have a flathead, or the guy with a nailhead gets a weight break because his valves are smaller, then it's handicapped racing........i

if your car passes the basic rules and there is a cubic inch rule, then you build the best you can afford and you bring it and run it, you win or you lose, heads up. but you had fun right,

there is a reason the hemi took over drag racing, it worked in the frame work of the rules for the class, if you didnt run it you werent competetive

i have participated in a couple of pilot programs to try and get some kind of heads up affordable racing,but the best case i have seen was 5 guys in seattle. we built 5 identical SBC 355's, EVERYTHING was the same, the heads were sealed to the block with a tag seal, the only thing they could add was the camshaft and intake system. carb was limited to 850 CFM, the heads were set up with the same retainers , springs etc. so if a guy got carried away with cams he was going to break something. you could port the intake all you wanted, you were still gonna be limited to what the cam and related componets could flow, they all had early 60's novas, they have been racing each other for the last 3 yrs, every grudge night or open night at the local strips they go down and race each other , strictly for bragging rights. they are having a blast

so having a spec engine worked for them, i think it would work here to, but i would rather see a cubic inch rule , run what ya brung, and if it wasn't enough, try something else next time.

 

Another .02$ of mine.

Bracket racing is the only way to go with this idea, then you can build your car the way you want it and spend however much you want. From the stories EVERYONE had a good time at Mokan, right?

The only rules would be safety ones.

If a guy wants to run 20 second ETs he has just as much fun as the guy running 10's, well almost .

One race in the 70's when my 11.99 Chevy II was down for repairs, I raced my stock 71 VW it ran 20 something but I won the bracket cause I knew how to race, good dial, cut a good light and go man go.

Brackets let the flatheads, inliners, sbc and hemi's all have their fun.

 

Racefab, maybe you can answer this.
Would it be possible to make different makes and sizes of engine perform equaly by limiting the RPMs?
Adjustable Rev limiters aren't that expensive, and each engine type could get its own max RPM depending on how that type does on average.
It would make Engines last longer, but would it make them cheaper to build?
Would there be less of a reason to spend a lot of time on porting, or more?
Would it still benifit people to go nuts with trick one off Cam designs ( driving prices up again ), or would the RPM cap make that not effective?
I'm not saying this is the right solution, but I am curious of how it would work... ( and you would hopfully have very few things to check, maybe just pump it for size and check where the limiter is set at...)

 

The common thread is everyone wants it to be fun. The answer is get as many cars done as possible for '06. You'll find some running near your times. I plan to be there with a blown and injected aluminum block Mercruiser in a 1500# car so I really don't care what rules everyone decides on. I just want to embarass as many people as possible with a 4 cyl. It's time to get busy people.

 

something else that needs to be addressed is the transmission.
we gonna have a limit on how many gears?
a powerglide can really add up in $$$$$$$$$
we prolly ought to get Shifts or Crosley to chime in here...

 

oh yeah, anybody got an '04 or '05 nhra rulebook they can get us the safety req.?
we'll be needing to know about chutes and firesuits, etc.

 

If it would be limited solely to cubic inches and stock block/heads, does that mean a 4.3 V6 would be fair game? Would anyone else out there run this engine besides me?

 

Talked to my friend at work some more--he loves the idea, but want's to do it in a SBC, for all of the valid (VERY valid) reasons already mentioned here.

Again, if I were going to sit down and make rules for my own sand box, I think I'd have two classes: Both 300cid limit. One class for SBC, SBF and SBMopar, the other class for everything else--inliners, flat heads, Y-blocks, Nails, Rockets, etc.
My buddy suggested limiting the heads to factory PRODUCTION castings, press-in studs, etc.
-Brad

 

its very hard to get the same make and size average,let alone different makes, somebody would have to do a lot of dyno and research time to figure out an average horsepower formula for each brand.

the automotive engine is a air pump, some are designed to be more efficient than others, period.its easy to build on the designs that are more effecient than the ones that are not.

i am not trying to rain on the idea, i think its great, but the engine aspect of it is going to be a huge part of heads up affordable racing, you iron out that issue and the dragster design itself will fall into place around it with a basic rule package.



Fred

 

The 300 inch limit wouldn't work, the smallest early rocket was 303!
And, it'd eliminate the highly coveted 302 GMC!
Don't matter, my cars gonna have dual motor mounts, one set to accomodate the 261 from hell I'm getting from DIRTYT, and one for the killa 307 I have in the works...buhahahahahahahaha!

jay