Would anyone be interested in a new racing class?

Everything dreamweaver said is right. It`s the fairest handicap there is. Everyone seems to hate braket raceing though. But it`s only boring to watch. If your raceing it`s a blast.

 

I haven't been to the drags since the mid-seventies when I saw a guy hit the brakes at the end of his run. I asked my bud what the deal was, and was told the brake thing was to keep him from "going too fast". TOO FAST!!???? I haven't bothered watching anything but the pro classes since that day.

 

Like I said boring to watch. Fun to race.

 

That sounds a little silly to put the Nailheads and Rockets in with the inlines and flatheads, talk about unfair. Maybe a weight penalty for some of the engines could work, but damn this is getting way to complicated. If you guys are that bent over the rules it won't be fun...

as for bracket racing...

Hitting your brakes before the finish is NOT fun, it's stupid....

 

No, that is not what I ment.
What I was thinking about is, If say the 312 Y Blocks run away from the field, give them a little lower max RPM.
If Red Ram Hemi's stay behind, give them a little more.
(But all the Engines of the same size and type would have the same Max RPM.)
It shouldnt take too long to even out the performance, but it would constantly be moving, by small amounts.

 

Sounds like NASCAR.....how is this any better than just running brackets or indexes?

Mutt

 

I dont know, it might be just as bad.
But I think the difference might be that if one guy or Team works harder on their car they can win.
If one car does better than all the rest, it doesnt get penalised for it.
If a certain combination does better on average, that whole group gets pulled back a bit.

 

This is only me talking, on my take on it. So don't get alarmed.

I know what Root is thinking, I am there myself. Just a bunch o' guys (and gals) who wanna race something not a whole lotta people do, and do it on the cheap. I am down with that.
It's kinda like why I follow the SASS. Single Action Shooting Society. Sure there's top competitors, with factory backing, good guns, etc. But it comes down to YOU vs. THE CLOCK. So no matter what, if YOU best THE CLOCK, you're a winner. I know I'll never be a top shooter, don't care. I got a hunnert dollar black powder pistol that goes BANG and smokes and makes me feel like a cowboy.

A 307 powered FED, even if it runs 14's, will be my shot a being a drag racer. As long as I better my own ET's, thus beating THE CLOCK, I'll consider myself a winner. If someone else has a faster HEMI or nailhead, more power (oops shoulda said 318 Poly for that ) to them. And congrats too.

Just rambling...

Jay

 

I like the idea as a whole, but there are certainly good points that need to be addressed as many have stated. We can have fun as long as rules are reasonable and people keep it fun. Sure, big money will get a win, but like many have said, the chance to race against similar cars that were built and driven by guys in their garage and with help from their buddies will be a lot of fun. Having fun is the key, like Rashy said, having fun while losing is the most successful guy out there.

 

The easiest way to do this with no major arguements, it make it a $1000 claimier class and have VERY specific rules....sorta like a spec class. They do this with classes like IMCA mods and such in the NASCAR circles...same things can be done here. No titanium, no magnesium, no carbon fiber.....all steel heads, block (not aftermarket either).....allow methanol/alcohol or race gas, 2 speed trans only, poweglide more than likely. Have a specific weight minimum that is easily attainable without all the trick metals and such. Also give them a max tires size. If you also give a specific weight for types of engines you can even things a little there. Remember, someone will always show up and try to kill the class with money, so take that out of the equation.

Just my $1.25 in thoughts....feel free to give me back my change.....

 

Here's a pic of Kin Bates Jr.s Olds digger. They are starting a new class for these kinds of cars.

I'll try to add the pic now,
Here goes nuttin'

 

This limiting power through RPM or whatever will not work . Lets say I have a 331 hemi that wins every time ,There are three other 331 Hemis that are dogs. Do you limit the power on all of the Hemis or just mine?

NHRA racers have figured this out with index's a long time ago . If you own the only 283 1964 Impala wagon in the world and you run way under the index ,they will lower your index to make you uncompetitive. If you have one of 700 racing 64 Novas with a 283 they will think twice about dropping the index because of the #'s.

I know you guys don't want to hear about bracket racing but it takes care of all these issues that you have. No cumbersome tech, checking for casting #'s ,years, ect.

First off the person who said "hitting your brakes before the finish is stupid." is stupid.
Think about that,if I'm going 110 MPH before the line ,and 110 MPH after the line whats the difference?

I run brackets, The general Myth is we all run down to the finish line and put on our brakes. That would mean we can depend on our cars to be consistent while braking at some magical point . I have worked with my car for years to get it to run within .003 of a second all stinkin' day .I drive it down there and do not lift off the gas maybe once in 20 passes.

If all you want is to better your own time ,go to test & tune days. You can line up against your buddy and see who is fastest.

I don't want to try to get everyone to bracket race but this new class thing has been done time and time again and trust me bracket racing is fun,FAIR, safe and if you want to pay attention to the details you can make a few $'s.

I'm with you in spirit ,I just think the answer is already there.I have built a lot of drag cars. If anyone would like I can give you a pretty good idea what the cost's and materials would be for FED. Have a nice weekend all !!

 

metalshapes... limiting rpms would not work. The reason being, engines can be built to make torque at almost any RPM... run a tall gear, and you're a winner.

Also, handicapping one motor over another will not work. i.e. giving a weight break for a nail head over a SBC for instance. This is due to the fact that we do not have the resources to FAIRLY assess and evaluate the performance for all the engines out there.

And cheap. What the heck do you mean by CHEAP? Cheap to me is 10-15k for a complete operation that is built to run low tens to mid 9's... Cheap to me is running 12s' for 2k... or cheap to me is running mid 10's to 11's for 5k.

And... it is a PROVEN FACT that if you want CHEAP... and FAST to be used in the same sentence... you will run a 355 with a powerglide.

I know there is SOME kind of mistique about running a wee-motor... but who gives a shit, it doesn't make it any cheaper... or faster... so why do it?


A cheap FED class to me would be one where you said stock heads, stock block, 9.5:1 compression max, and 18" (or a pre-determined amount) of vacuum... single carb, no electronics powerglide tranny and RACE!!

I guess my point is... you have to decide between these two things:

1) do want this to be a CHEAP, affordable, drag racing class that can go as fast as possible for X amount of dollars... one that people could get excited about and have FUN running in?

2) or do you want this to be a "period correct" racing class that has people scrambling to make mucho power out of antiquated motors?


I think RACEFAB's idea about the sealed motors is the best one yet. That was basically my idea about the Kragen motor'd cars... it would make the racing CLOSE as hell... and not THE GUY WITH THE MOST MONEY AND RESOURCES WINS.


You can see it starting with all the different opinions about what would work...

I also like $500 claimer rules. talk about "doing it on the cheap"...

How about this... at the end of the race... the top three people HAVE to offer there motors up for sale for $500 to anyone who wins a raffle. People would put $10 in for the raffle... and three people would go home with motors.

That would keep things CHEAP. I presonally would go down and grab something out of a wrecked car... slap a cam in it... and RUN IT.

The winner would get the long block only... no valve covers, no intake, no ignition, no starter or water pump...

Anyone game?

Sam.

 

Would an inline engine built with a ton of compression, cam and multi carbs get it's ass handed to it by a bored 264 Nailhead with a ton of cam and compression?
Seriously--I don't know; I haven't seen that many of either run. How would they compare to a 292 Y-Block?
Is there a way for a bunch of enthusiasts to get together and say "This is the size Olds we'll allow, the size Y-block, Nailhead and Hemi, and if you wanna run an inline, then these are the sizes allowed. You gotta run factory iron heads (unless it's an aluminum 215 Buick or Olds, or Flatty), factory production blocks, normally aspirated, no sheetmetal intakes, wet sump oil system, no crank trigger ignition or HEI, an auto trans (more for safety than anything--not many blowproof bellhousings available for odd make engines!) and 10-inch slicks with stiff (no wrinkle wall) sidewalls."
With those criteria, would the field be fairly level, to the point where tuning your 300-305ci engine (regardless of configuration) and driver skill is what wins the day?
Money is always, always going to rear its ugly head, but at some point you reach the end of how much money you can throw at a normally aspirated Nailhead, Slant 6, Rocket, Baby Hemi, Poncho, inliner or flatty--there just aren't that many parts and upgrades available for them! Rotating assembly, cam and head porting are going to be the only places to spend anything approaching real money. And once guys step up to that, they're still going to hit competitive wall because the intake and factory cast heads are the limiting factors.
Not so with the small blocks and 331/354/392 Hemi. Guys can keep throwing money at those engines until they run out of money, and there's always something left, because there are so many parts and combinations available. How many factory head castings are available for the Y-block? How many of them are the desirable ones to have? Same question with Nailhead, Rocket, Inline, etc. Now ask that question with the SBC, SBF or SB Mopar.
Yeah, the NASCAR analogy started occuring to me as well--as did the IROC thing. I dunno: Inliners get "X" weight break, Flat Heads get "Y", Small Blocks have to weigh "D" pounds per cubic inch...
Like I've said, I'd like a venue where I can run a Nailhead against a Y-Block, a Flat Head or an Inliner, and the victory isn't a foregone conclusion. Running a 264 Nail or 300 I-6 against a 283, heads-up, is like feeding the Christians to the Lions. The story said they all died smiling, but they still died, and the lions got full bellies.

-Brad

 

Yes you do...
A stopwatch.

That is what I mean by cheap too...
And cheap could also be running a Race Engine that doesnt need any aftermarket Cranks, Rods, Pistons, etc because it will not turn the Revs that would kill the Stock parts.

Like I said before, maybe its a really dumb idea, that would never work.
But I'd rather watch a bunch of different old time engines do very close heads up racing, than any kind of Bracket race... ( or even Spec Racing )

 

Oh, man, I'd love to run a 303 Olds block with 324 heads, on NITRO

 

Uhhh? what about manual transmissions? I'd run a 3 spd manual behind a nailhead before I even thought about a dynaflow, and really a powerglide only lends itself to specific engines before it gets cost prohibitive...

Ha ha you're funny, it's still stupid, dumb, and idiotic. Racing is about going as fast as you can in a given instance, slowing down or not accelerating because you're scared you'll break out is silly... Heads up is where it's at...

Sorry Sam but if it's going to force everyone to run a SBC then fuck it it ain't worth it...

I think you have more of handle on what I'd like to see. And I think you undersestimate the 264/322 engines, if it's kept to pre-62 or whatever blocks and heads on the SBC and everything else the Olds 303 and Nailhead 264/322 can give a SBC a good run, it's the inlines and flatheads that are going to need a little help, that's where I think the 2 seperate classes would help. maybe give the flatheads and inlines somekind of advantage to try and even the playing field, but it's all about having fun. And that's putting your foot into it and going as fast as you can with another cool ride in the other lane...

 

And I'd love to see against a 322 Nailhead FED in the next lane..

 

Too many chiefs... not enough indians.


The problem is... there are people on here asserting theirself on a new class of racing who have never built a drag car... let alone never built the type of motor they are touting as the one they want to use.

Second problem is... people are trying to make up the rules to allow the combination they have to be competitive.

Anyone who has ever races ANYTHING "heads-up" knows that you set the rules FIRST and THEN you build a car.

It's that simple.

So... what are the rules?

I would prefer that someone (like Roothawg) make up the rules, and then tell us what they are going to be. Then, if you want to compete... you will build a car that you feel will be competetive. No whining, no snivling... no bitching that it's "unfair"... you either "step up" and pay to play... or you just build something to have fun.

Sam.

 

I fall in that catagory.
If that is THE problem, please accept my humble appologies for showing an interest.

Let me know when you are done hashing out the regs, and I will make my decission then.

Alex.

 

Like they always say... it's better to be pissed-off than pissed-on!

BTW, I wasn't singling ANYONE out... just an observation that SOMEONE needs to take charge and tell the rest of us what the rules are. Because up to this point... I don't see anyone who is serious about building a car actually agreeing on anything.

Metalshapes, what type of car are you planning on building? What rules do you want to see? Can we get more than two people to agree on them?

To tell you the truth, my car is already built. It has a 292 SBC in it, built with all old parts, it weighs a lot more than any dragster would weigh, and at 10.40... it runs slower than any digger with any kind of motor would run. I probably won't win anything at the HAMB Drags with it... but damn, I'll show up with it to have fun if there is a class to run it in!

Personally, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade... but I'm more excited about building something like Grimlock described. I've e-mailed Carl at MOKAN and he ok'd the safety aspect of it... so next up is pitching the idea to the HAMB. cars can be built for around 1k-2k... and it would be a success if two or more showed up.

So I guess you should just disreguard my comments. I don't mean to make you upset. It's just that having the experience that I have with this sort of thing, with stock car racing... claimer motors... and basically knowing how racers are... I just see it as one heck of a challenge, that's all. Bottom line, I don't have the answers... I could lay out some simple rules... but then, people would complain that they weren't fair.

Sam.

 

Nate the pic I posted of Bates' digger has a 303 bored to I think 341 with #10 heads on alcohol, Hilborn Injection. Engine by Gene and Gary Adams, who can make an Olds scream..

Those guys are trying to start a class like a lot of you are talking about. Like SamIam said, you can't build a car and start a class to fit, you build a car to fit class rules.

 

Hokay! So now everyone knows why it's never worked. Any time you start limiting what guys can do, you start taking the challenge to get better out of it.

That's why there's bracket racing. Fewest rules for your fun.

I say let's get the heads on here together and work out a cheap, easy to build and learn on chassis everyone can run. Make the chassis the class and just let it go from there. Run whatever the hell you want to fit into a bracket.
You start breaking out or having to let off, you move up a bracket. At least you can race against similar timed cars heads up and it doesn't really matter what you use to make your bracket time. And if you keep finding new ways to go faster, you just keep moving up the brackets. You blow up your Y block and wanna run a mopar, change the engine mounts and get back at it in the same chassis. What we need is an all around safe but nostalgic all purpose chassis. Something the guys can buy the bent tubes or plans, build themselves in the garage and go have fun with whatever engine.


A/HAMB 7.0 to 7.99
B/HAMB 8.0 to 8.99
C/HAMB 9.0 to 9.99
etc.

 

Organizing drag racers is like herding cats.

 

Sam,

I agree someone should step up. Perhaps maybe you (since you have knowledge) can help coach Roothawg to come up with rules that are fair to EVERYONE. There will always be snivelers, but I think you guys can come up with something.

I have never built a car from the frame up, such as this. But this could be one HELL of a good way to learn how.

And, if anyone else has any input, put it in writing, and lets work something out. Hell, I even found a frame builder at lunch!

BTW, I'm thinking dual pattern motor mounts. One set for a 261, one for an SBC. Only cuz those are the two "relatively stock" engines I have lying around the farm. Except for a rod knocking 318.

jay

 

38Chevy454 has an old '60 Olds motor... and an old '60 caddy motor... both too big to run in an "under 300cuin" class... but damn, they are there... and it sure would be neat to build an old styled digger to run one in...

So... how about a class that reads like this:

-FED, or altered chassis

-150" wheelbase maximum 92" minimum

-11" tire maximum

-1400 pound minimum weight with driver.

-SBC motors under 300 cu in

-Pre 1961 OHV "non Chevrolet" motors any cu in displacement.

-Any 6 cylinder motor... 6cylinders may have one power adder above their v8
counterparts. i.e. Nitrous, Nitro, supercharger, turbochargers.

-6cyl motors without power adder will recieve a 200 pound weight break.

-All classes will run gasoline. except for 6 cylinders with power adder.

-all engines must have stock cast iron heads, blocks... steel rods. NO AFTERMARKET HEADS!

-cars must be NHRA legal to run.

Sound fair?

Sam.

 

How long will a relatively stock 261 last on NNNNNNNNNNitro?
I should add I am about to become a tech at the local Caterpillar dealer... warranty core turbo, anyone? just kidding. Maybe.
I'm in, for next year!

Jay

 

I added something about heads blocks and rods...
Sam.

 

You didn't.

And I am not that sure my idea is even workable.
I did not think an extra idea would be a problem,( I think I even put it as a question ) and if its bad its easely dismissed.
With your experience it shouldn'd be to hard for you to explain to me why it wouldn't work.

 

-FED, or altered chassis

-150" wheelbase maximum 92" minimum

-11" tire maximum

-1400 pound minimum weight with driver.

-SBC motors under 300 cu in

-Hemi head motors under 360 cu in

-Hemi head motor powered cars 1600 pound minimum with driver.

-Pre 1961 OHV "non Chevrolet" motors any cu in displacement.

-Any 6 cylinder motor... 6cylinders may have one power adder above their v8
counterparts. i.e. Nitrous, Nitro, supercharger, turbochargers.

-6cyl motors without power adder will recieve a 200 pound weight break.

-All classes will run gasoline. except for 6 cylinders with power adder.

-all engines must have stock cast iron heads, blocks... steel rods. NO AFTERMARKET HEADS!

-cars must be NHRA legal to run.