Good question. I think that there may be a way to track ZDDP depletion using Fourier Transform Infrared (FTIR) scanning, but it's not a well developed method and it's not included in a typical oil analysis package. A small lab like Blackstone maybe could develop that specifically for car guys that use their service. Maybe not a bad idea. Someone should write them about it.
This is actually a very good post. There are so many old wives tales still circulating around oil and what is good or bad. Thanks for putting in the effort to sit down and type it all out.
Brad penn. Penn grade 1 is green in color. The best has zddp in it. Get it at summit racing for 9 bucks a quart. Not bad when a good built flatty costs any where from 5000 up. Keep that valve train happy.
I use Brad penn for poor ol henry j once a year.... But i see or what could be the most for your money might be... Rislone Engine Treatment Concentrate 16.9 oz from Walmart Rislone Engine Treatment Concentrate is high quality penetrating lubrication oil - combined with protective engine additives and special cleaning agents. $4.47 · Walmart And reading the description from them is purty good... Why Choose Rislone’s ZDDP Supplement? Most drivers know that having adequate engine oil is important to the longevity and performance of your vehicle. But do you know what ZDDP is all about? Anti-Wear and Corrosion Inhibitor: ZDDP is short for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, and is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. When put under pressure, ZDDP attaches to the metal surface and becomes a sacrificial wear material. Beyond being an anti-wear additive, it also is a corrosion inhibitor. Modern Oils Have Reduced Zinc Levels: Modern motor oils have been updated to meet the needs of changing engine designs. This has led to a reduction of zinc in today’s oils, which means modern oils do not offer the protection needed for older engines. What Does ZDDP Do, Anyway? Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment (ZDDP) cools and lubricates moving parts far better than oil alone. ZDDP clinging properties hold the oil to metal parts preventing wear and dry starts. Special additives also prevent oil thinning at high temperatures where normal oil fails.
No, it should stay relatively consistent from start to end. It is going to be measured as Zinc whether it is fresh ZDDP ready to be used, or worn off used ZDDP that has already been used.
What would be a wild guess as to the life of ZDDP in normal Sx automotive oil today, when used in an older high performance engine? Hundreds of miles? thousands of miles?
Except, oil does more than just prevent wear, it does a lot of things, and has a carefully blended additive package of chemicals selected to work well together (play nicely in the sand box together) or even synergistically. You have no idea how this Rislone chemistry is going to work with the particular additive package in the oil you're using (and neither does Rislone). Like I said above, I'm not a fan of bathtub blending of lubricants. Chemists and formulators go to great lengths to make sure the chemistry of a packaged oil is well done, and it has to go through very expensive testing to receive API licensing. Then you come along and randomly dump in a batch of chemicals, it's not a smart way to go. Pick a particular oil and go with it. That Brad Penn oil is good oil, made with good Penn grade group II base oil. If I was using that I'd just go with that and forego the Rislone stuff.
Hard to say, and it would be a guess. For instance with a flathead Ford V8, I don't know if anyone really makes that aggressive of a cam for them, do they? Even a 3/4 race cam is pretty mild compared to an aggressive cam in an OHV engine. My understanding of cam grinds is out of date, as Falcongeorge made it clear. But short overlap cams, or rather narrow LSA, with very steep ramps are pretty common as I understand it. That's going to stress the ZDDP level in the engine. So I think an old flathead could probably go into the thousands of miles with no problems, while a cam with a steep ramp and high spring pressures maybe not into the thousands, maybe hundreds. But that really is a WAG.
Correct....(i don't add to the BP oil) this is your area (definitely more so than mine) so ----- preach it brother ..
Wait - four and a half hours has gone by, and there's only 40 posts on a "What Oil Should I Use?" thread?? Sheesh. You guys are slippin'.
^ Well for 20 minutes of that i was -------- ah never mind taking a 2017 mercedes benz -n- wiping my 2016 honda
Blues4U has it right. I also have to complement him on his patience to post valuable information to a question that has been answered many times over on the HAMB. Gary
ZDDP was an additive that cam after the flathead from my research. Maybe the masses will understand adding additives to oil better this way. in industry we are admonished to not mix cleansers as they sometimes have a bad reaction. A simple experiment is to mix a little chlorine bleach with ammonia. Note very little of each and not in an enclose area. The reason for very small batch and not in enclosed area is that this mix creates or gives off chlorine gas, highly toxic, as part of its reaction. When you go throwing additives in your oil all willy nil, you may not get the same remarkable results as ammonia and chlorax but you are asking for trouble as you do not know what reaction the additive will have with the existing additives already in the oil.
Like I said, there will be a lot of opinions. The Zinc may not be gone entirely, but may as well be for the sake of the older motors. That's just fucking splitting hairs now! I'm not chemist so I rely on the knowledge of many friends that are professional motor builders and racers that know more about this than I do. And FWIW, the Zinc's (ZDDP) more important for cam break in. The cam guys I've talked to say that you can just about run anything, within reason after cam break in. I put a bottle of ZDDP in everything in my shop. It's not expensive when I buy by the case. It's not like a gallon of gas that's gone in a few miles. Just sayin.
I believe Blues4U answered the question about adding a bottle of zinc in his posts. Definitely not a smart practice in my estimation.
Back to traditional topics - used to buy reclaimed oil that was put in new containers-could buy recycled batteries too-the good ol' days Sent from my SM-G930V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I still buy "rebuilt" batteries (for under $30). Have for YEARS! Got a bit over a decade in my 64 Vette that sat sometimes for weeks and never had a battery charger on it. And got around 7-8 yrs on the one in my 38! I even use them in 13-1 compression race cars.
I use Mobil 1 15-50 synthetic, 1300ppm zddp and $27 at wal mart for a 5qt jug. Its thin for a 50W oil, so i consider it a heavy 10-40w. 0w-40 mobil 1 is 1100 and is more like a 10-30w that flows at single digit temps. https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf
Just to clarify, 15W50 is not "thin for a 50W oil". In fact, there is no such thing as 50W oil. The"W" after the number stands for "Winter" and it applies to only certain viscosity grades which are separated by cold cranking, or pumping temperatures. You can have 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W, and 25W, but you cannot have 50W. Also, you can have a 20 grade oil that is not 20W, and you can have a 20W20 enginbe oil. The word "weight" gets used a lot in discussions on oil, and that is NOT a technical term used for oil viscosity, it is a slang term that I think started in use because of the W on some viscosity grades, but again, the W stands for Winter, not Weight, and the term "Weight" is not a technical term at all. Grade is, or more correct is Viscosity Grade, or Vis Grade. But back to your statement, the term 15W50 means that the oil has certain cold flow properties (15W) and a certain viscosity at 100*C (50). It is not "thin" for a 50, it is just as "thick" as any 50 grade oil, when measured at 100C, which is where straight grade 50 is measured. It is NOT a heavy 10W40, it is a 15W50, period. Here is a chart explaining the SAE viscosity grades. http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ For a mind blower, compare the viscosity of the SAE Gear Oil grades at the bottom of the page, to the viscosities of engine oils at the top of the page. And you probably thought 80W90 gear oil was thicker than 10W40 motor oil, didn't you? Be honest....
I was basing it on the visco ratings i've seen for them on bob is the oil guy. I don't know a whole lot, but i know just enough to know that these are good oils to shove in my porsche and my hemi You, obviously know more than i do and i defer to your knowledge. I did know that about gear oil, i had to figure that out since the transaxle in my 944 murders gear oil since it runs pretty hot when i use it the way it should be used. "For a virgin oil, here is the result for Mobil 1 SS 15W-50: 17.4 cSt @ 100 C (ASTM D445) 5.11 m Pa s (Or cSt) @ 150 C (ASTM D4683) For Mobil 1 0W-40: 14.3 cSt @ 100 C (ASTM D445) 3.6 mPa s @ 150 C (ASTM D4683)" Lifted from this thread: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22504
Good lord.....i use basic Mobil1 Turbo diesel 5w40 in my hot ass smallblock in the Coupe. No issues, its 11:1, roller cammed, higher spring pressure, regularly run hard, not babied at all. Dyno at 570...and all is good. Bearings stay good, rockers/cam good, springs good.....just use quality oil and get over it Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
When building a hopped up flathead and you start having valve lifts over .400 you need higher and higher spring pressures. And that higher spring pressure pushing that flat tappet lifter down hard on the cam, can wear them out in a short period of time. I only know one guy with a roller cam'ed flatty motor. With high spring pressure And flat tappets the need for zddp should not be over looked. Penn grade oils is where it's at for these old mills.
Thanks for all the info Blues4U. Very good stuff. I rely on Blackstone Labs for oil analysis, because I didn't know I needed a degree in chemical engineering to change my oil... I've tried almost everything in oils and went through a lot of money and parts all of a sudden back in 2008-2010 (4 flat cams in a row ). The oil chemically changed on me while I slept and I didn't know it! It's a long story, but I did eventually find out that this still works for me.
Well, to be honest, IMO it wasn't always a good choice. Previous categories of diesel engine oils had comparatively high levels of sulfated ash, which can lead to piston deposits. But since 2007 the level of SA has been capped at 1%, so that really has not been an issue. IMO it is the best option for older engines, because not only do these oils have a good level os ZDDP, but they are more robust in other ways, providing better resistance of oxidation, nitration, better detergency to fight against corrosion and keep engines nice and clean, better viscosity control, reduced volatility, and IMO the viscosity is just about perfect for older engine designs and clearances. I don't see a downside to them.
ZddPlus – ZddPlus is an oil addiditive that essentially brings today’s modern oil up to snuff for your vintage engine. Alliance members get their fifth bottle free after buying four! To get your discount, simply type “JalopyJournal” into the discount field at checkout! Sold by an Alliance Vendor here on the HAMB. Good info on their website: www.zddplus.com
Blues4U, any quick thoughts about Lucas Oil 10063 Zinc additive for mild street flat tappet hydraulic engines? As a mechanic/ counter goober, I want to know more about what I try to sell to myself and others.
I use Shell Rotella 15W-40 truck oil with a little jug of ZZDP. My son put a roller cam in his 400 sbc and didn't need is case of ZZDP anymore..gave it to me. I have an old stone-age flat tappet cam in my Pontiac engine and I ain't taking any chances!
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