I have also used Walmart brand motor oil for years and I've had no problems with it. I know that's probably sacrilege to some of you but I did it mainly just to prove a point after the price of the name brand I used drastically increased. So I switch back and forth between Napa and Walmart. Just depends on what part of town I'm in when I need motor oil. Sent from my A520L using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I've read enough on the ZDDP issue to make my head spin! MY TAKE is any older STOCK engine in service for the past 10-15 years is OK with off the shelf oil, no worries. The decrese in levels has been pretty gradual, from what I've read, and shouldn't hurt a thing! Now, for a PERFORMANCE ENGINE with a bigger cam and stiffer valve springs - it's as SIMPLE as Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil, sold at any NAPA store in town - or ordered the same day. VR-1 is around 1200ppm (IIR), with a detergent package good for 3k oil changes. 'Nuff said.
Blues4U, you mentioned "pumpability" in an earlier post and it got me thinking. Years ago (for some unknown reason) I was a die-hard Valvoline oil fan, when I built my first hot rod BBC it had oil pressure on the low side, especially at running temperature at idle. I switched to Castrol (same grade) and the oil pressure increased by 10+ psi across the rpm range. Is that a common ocurrance among oils of the same advertised viscosity? Is that another factor to consider when trying to pick an oil to stick with? Try several different brands and see how they affect the pressure? Thanks for all the interesting info.........
It appears that Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil (HDDEO) is the way to go. My question is, "Which HDDEO has only the CK-4 rating?" chevon delo 400 mobil devac 1300 super shell rottella t
I use this as well and it comes in a variety of viscosities. I've also used Brad Penn synthetic blend and liked it.
All finished lubricants have a shelf life, mostly due to settling of additives, though there could also be some low level of oxidation. Most companies put the shelf life at about a year and advise you not to use it beyond that. I'm not familiar with it and have no first hand knowledge or experience with it, I just put it in the same category as any aftermarket lube additive, I don't use them or advise it. Like I said above, finished lubricants are a blend of carefully balanced additives, that are chosen to work well together. Man, additive and lubricant companies spend >million dollars to get a finished lubricant worked out and get it to pass all the tests involved to receive licensing by the API. You really have no idea how the aftermarket additive is going to work with these, and you'd have to do extensive lab work and engine tests to find out. How are you going to do that? ZDDP is surface acting, it is attracted to the surfaces and wants to attach itself. But there are other surface active chemicals in there as well, so they end up fighting for space. If you don't know how the chemicals are going to react with each other you're just taking a chance that it will all be OK, but you don't know. The resulting blend could be better, or it could be worse. I don't know if that is common, but you basically described a difference in "Viscosity Index". 2 different oils may both be labeled as X viscosity grade, but they could have vastly different Viscosity Index, which is a reference to how much the viscosity of the oil changes relative to a change in temperature. A low VI indicates the viscosity of the oil will fluctuate greatly with changes in temperature; so it will thicken up when it gets cold and will thin out as it gets hot. A high VI indicates the viscosity of the oil will remain comparatively stable with changes in temperature. So as the temp drops it doesn't thicken up as much, and as it gets hot it doesn't thin out as much. In your description the Castrol probably had a higher VI than the Valvoline and maintained it's viscosity better at operating temperature, giving you better oil pressure. The VI of most oils should be available on a technical data sheet available from the oil company, I look these up all the time for various reasons, google does a great job of finding them, or sometimes I have to go to the company website and search to find it, which is a hassle cause there's a lot of crappy websites out there. All of the major lube companies provide this to the public. Smaller companies tend to make it more private, I don't know why, but that is the trend. FYI: Delo 400 is now CK-4 / SN, and the zinc content is now typically at 800 ppm https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=481951&docFormat=PDF Mobil Delvac 1300 Super is now CK-4/SN, they don't list the zinc, but it has to be capped at 800ppm for the SN license. https://mobildelvac.com/en/engine-oils/mobil-delvac/mobil-delvac-1300-super Shell does NOT list SN on their tech data for Rotella T4 15W40 CK-4 product, this product most likely still has ~1200 ppm of zinc. http://rotella.shell.com/products/rotella-triple-protection.html Here's some others: Castrol CRB Multi 15W40 CK-4, does not carry SN license http://www.castrol.com/content/dam/...cial-vehicles/PDS - CRB Multi 15W-40 CK-4.pdf Valvoline Premium Blue, this one gets tricky. The data sheet says it's licensed for CK-4, but then it says "meets the engine test requirements of API SN, SM, and all prior API gasoline categories.", which to me says it's not licensed for SN, but it meets the "Engine Test Requirements". That's legalese way of saying it performs well enough to pass the engine tests, but it doesn't meet the chemical limits required for SN. I'd have to measure it, but I'd bet this still has ~1200 ppm of zinc. http://hd.valvoline.com/sites/default/files/20170228_premium_blue_8600_es_0.pdf Walmart Super Tech Universal 15W40, this is still CJ-4/SM. Since they are not claiming CK-4 they don't need to limit zinc to meet the SN limit, therefore this oil also probably still has ~1200ppm of zinc. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-Universal-Motor-Oil-15W40-1-gal/17134877 Bottom line is, if the oil carries both CK-4 AND SN licenses, then the chemical limit of SN applies. That means lower zinc levels, the same as passenger car oil. If you wonder about a particular oil, you can look it up too, just google it.
With the diesel oil at 1200 ppm, and automotive at 800, there really isn't that much difference between them, eh? My guess is that most guys with high perf engines change the oil way sooner than they need to....so the reduced ZDDP levels are probably not really causing any problems, after all.
Thanks for all the info! I wasn't trying to start a fight, just wanted some "fresh" info on current Zinc levels. My Cleveland is a fresh rebuild with about a 1000 miles on it. Used Joe Gibbs BR oil first time. My cam is NOT roller and about .550 lift. I have always liked the Rotella T oil but I think I will try the Devlac 1300 dino oil 15w40. A heavy truck mechanic friend of mine switched from Rotella to this in the fleet he maintains and has no complaints.
Well, that's 40% less zinc; but I do think the problem with reduced zinc is over stated and you're probably right for the most part. I think my little ol 283 with the stock cam that gets driven <2000 miles a year would be just fine with 800ppm zinc.
Ya got that right ...lol --- Heck back ---way back --- when we HAD an oil sponsor(DRAG CAR), we used FRESH oil on race day, recycled it out , to ANY OLD oil BURNER that was pathetically junk.
I ran across some Kendall hi-ZDDP oil at my local speed shop the other day. When I had the stock cars all I used was their straight 50 weight racing oil.
Back in the early 70's I used to run Kendall GT-1 20W-50 Racing Oil in my street car. I was only 18 yrs. old then and I would buy it by the case for a better deal. When winter came I asked the "old" guy on the other side of the counter if they had any GT-1 in 10W-30. He looked over his glasses and said, "What the hell do you want to put panther piss in a racing oil for?" I just kind of shrunk back and walked out. I often wondered if that old man is still alive and what he would have said today?
Hey Blues4u, what is the Rotella T5 synthetic blend rated? Well... never mind, from their own site "It is suitable for use in all on or off highway engines requiring an API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4 or CH-4 diesel oil in this viscosity grade." Doesn't mention SN?
Blues4U, you Da Man on this ZDDP thread. Thanks for posting relevant information we all can use and not Bull Shit. I like your point about dumping in extra ZDDP's which destroys a motor oils additive balance. Some folks just don't get it that too much ZDDP can be just as bad as not enough. Gary
I ran across some information today on new CK-4 engine oils that reminded me of this thread, and thought I'd bring it back up to post the info. There is an association out there called the Petroleum Quality Institute of America that does indpendant analysis of different engine oils, and posts the results on their website, which you can access free of charge, no registration or anything. That's pretty cool. Anyway, they've recently analyzed several major heavy duty diesel engine oils, and posted the results, which I find interesting. Chevron and Mobil have both reduced zinc levels down to ~800ppm. Shell Rotella and Valvoline Premium Blue still retain about 1100 - 1200 ppm of zinc. This confirms what I suspected a few posts up. Here's the links, you can read the results yourself. http://pqiadata.org/Chevron_Delo_15W40_4192017.html http://pqiadata.org/Mobil_Delvac_15W40_4192017.html http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html http://pqiadata.org/Valvoline_Blue_15W40_4192017.html There's other interesting stuff on that website you might want to check it out.
Below is a link leading to the analysis of Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic (5W40). I am not an expert, but the specs appear that it may be better than the Shell T4 15w40 or Valvoline Blue 15w40. I would enjoy hearing from a true expert about this (hint, hint....Blues4U). http://www.pqiamerica.com/June 2014/shellrotellat6.htm
So...... is there a plan B when they all reduce the Zinc content? Other than additives where do we go?
First of all, that's the old CJ-4 specification. I'm pretty sure Shell has reformulated to meet CK-4, so this is old info. We need to see the results of the new formula. But with that said, this is a pretty good oil, note the higher Viscosity Index, meaning the oil retains its viscosity over a wider temperature range, which is good. The higher the VI, the better. But also notice the Volatility is a little higher, that's not good. Volatility refers to evaporation of the light ends of the hydrocarbon molecules, which as that occurs the viscosity of the oil gradually increases. What I wish they included in these analysis' was a Shear Stability test, that tests how stable the viscosity improvers are, how resistant they are to shearing. Also, compare the levels of Calcium and Magnesium, which are detergents. We haven't talked much about detergents, but if you compare to the others I posted earlier, look how this oil has a higher level of Mag. That is a different detergent package, probably more robust, longer lived. That's good. And finally, the Moly and Boron add additional anti-wear performance to the oil. This is good stuff. Other than the volatility everything else looks good.
I have always used Quaker State 10w40 and never had any issues my convertible has a stock 455 though my old coupe had a cam ground like the old 421SD Pontiacs had nothing wild though
Aren't Diesel oils formulated to run in lower RPM engines and are they really OK for the higher RPM's of gas engines?? Just wondering...
Well, think about it, and what would there be to an oil that would make it more suitable to lower RPM's? Mostly, that is a function of viscosity. There is a rule of thumb about viscosity, and that is the lower the speed and higher they load, the higher the viscosity should be; and vice versa, the higher the speed, the lower the load, the lighter the viscosity should be. So following that rule of thumb, you might think a lower RPM diesel engine might favor heavier viscosity. But the most common viscosity for a HDDEO is 15W40, with 10W30 being next common. And for synthetics 5W40 is pretty common. Isn't SAE 40 a pretty common viscosity grade for older gasoline engines? And in fact, 20W50 is a pretty common grade for racing motor oil. So, as far as viscosity goes, I think 15W40 is pretty much right on the money for an older gasoline engine. What else do you think there might be about the oil that might favor low rpm operation?
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