Hot Rods ZIP WATER PUMP RISER FACT THREAD!!!

First off, before the search option cops show up, I did do a search.... started at 3pm. and read threads till 10pm,, all were full of contradicting information.......and fiction....

So here's where I'm at... my model A has the traditional motor swap...SBC...single pully with the fan about 5'' to low...I the years gone past this was an easy fix for those in the know.. just get a zip riser,

So, as evolution evolved,... what was so easy... became a mass confusion .... and all because Zip decided to make a one size fits all riser that fits none... or actually one...it only fits a motor with AC and dual belt pulleys... and now a used to be bolt-on item requires a full blown machine shop and hours of fab work.... and this is why I closed my streetrod shop...
no one wants to pay for all the hours it takes to re engineer a bolt on product after it's on....

In the beginning, Zip made and absolute bitch'n product that was bolt on and be happy... the riser had no mounting AC & alt... you simply removed your short water pump with single pulleys and installed the riser...DONE!!!! pulleys lined up... and the belt stayed on when you red lined the motor...

with out being a Dick.... I gonna say this...and this is just my opinion, and the only way I could live with my self is this.... if I have double pulleys,.. I want belts on both pulleys.. I have no use whats so ever for a second V belt,... so I don't want to use double pulleys

so,... heres where the problem starts... the Zip riser is not made for single pulley SBC any more,,, it has donkey ears sticking out on the right side.... and the ALT mount is off by about 1/2-3/4... so the fix is to cut all the mounting tabs off..next,... the single belt water pump pulley rubs on the water pump...not by much... but it does rub....you can get water pump pulley shims 1 /8 and 1/4''... but you take the chance of having a motor that throws the belt @ redline, so the jerry rig fix is to use a 8' 2x4 to stretch the belt tighter than a nuns privates , which in turn takes the longevity out of the pump and ALT bearings...

so the simple bolt on item is not so simple anymore...hence the 300 threads spiced with 9000 pages of misinformation... so... what gonna happen here is... we're gonna get the facts straight once and for all!!!!

 

Just an observation, but during the 7 hours of searching and finding conflicting information, maybe you should think of contacting Zips, and tell them your concerns and ask questions . I did a quick search, read several posts about folks “cutting the ears off” etc. also in one thread I saw a mention of Snowwhite, that make a similar/same product.

 

So... first thing we are gonna clear up is the heater hose nipple on the water pump...I doesn't matter if you cap it off right there, or put a shut off valve down stream to the cab heater... when you do this the water does not circulate in the engine period....!!! the nipple on the pump is on the suction side, old school heaters didn't have a gate valve.... and the heat was in the cab.. and the fan blew across the heater core to heat the cab....So in the summer... the heat was there... evolution stepped in and said... hey we don't want hot water in the heater core so they put a valve in... ..most know as the temp cable that you slid with your finger.. but , at the same time they put what was known as the the water pump by pass hose that went from the pump to the manifold... with out that the water doesn't circulate... it just pressurizes ...So pretty easy right... no water circulates in the engine till the thermostat opens...

Zip instructions say to put the water pump suction hose hooked to the coolant port between cyl 6&8 this is all right if socks on a rooster is the look you are after..might as well add pulleys with no belts and AC Brackets with with no AC compressor

So as some have done... which is easy on the eye.... hook the suction hose to the coolant nipple on the manifold... this will suck the hot water out of the top of the engine and push it back through the engine block through the water pump...this will also make your thermostat work proper ...this is how the factory did it... the little 90 degree hose from the pump to the manifold...

sooo... what did all this say... with out the by pass hose there is Zero circulation of coolant in the engine...

 

LOL... bolt on that you have to cut the ears off??? and what about the pulleys??? weld some coffee can lids together to make your own?? maybe even put an ahuga horn on the ac bracket , or a dinner roll basket to warm your buns for the picnic??

 

I've done 2 Zips risers both in deuces, one worked great and on the other I went back to a stock pump. On both I cut off the air and alt mounting ears and smoothed the casting. I used an Alan Grove low mount alt bracket which mounts on the lower left side of the motor. If I can I always run dual belts. Reason I removed the one riser is I couldn't get the motor to cool and went back to a stock style Stewart pump with Cooling Components fan and the motor was happy. On both with the initial install I used a 6 blade fan with a Walker shroud. Also installed a good quality bleeder on top, very important to et all the air out of the system.

 

You can try your best to ridicule me…good for you.
I was offering an observation and a suggestion (not so much about the ears, but contact-also a possible alternative)

I may not be as old as you, but I work a night shift, and I’m certainly tired, of you as well.
Enjoy your day. Kick a puppy if it makes you feel better.

 

So back on tract... lets go to the thermostat...drilling holes in a thermostat is a old drag race trick... you want to warm the motor quick at a constant temp... drilling the holes also is a band aid for no bypass hose on the engine.. another drag race trick I used was to cut the center out of the thermostat, this slows the water flow through the radiator, they now have thermostat restrictors that you put in place..

next, one must understand how the thermostat works, and some times the need to check it...get a thermometer and a pan of water.... put it on the stove, note the water temp when it starts to open... and also when it's fully open.... it's gradual , so if you the correct stat... no holes needed... so let say it's a 180 you will notice when driving when it gets to 180. it will drop a few degrees, then back up.... this tells you it's working, it's opening and closing

next... one thing all must know is water has air in it,.. they make an additive to thin water, but all it really does is remove the air... best water to put in a radiator to insure the air is removed???? get a 5 gallon bucket , fill it with water, and throw a hand full of guppy's or gold fish in it... when they go belly up,... all the air is gone..scoop the fish out and pour the water in the radiator... or just buy premixed coolent from the store, that way the neighbors cats won't be following you around..

 

Oh quit... nothing was dirrected at you,.. thought your post was funny so I added some more humor to it
thats the bad thing about internet,,things get taken the wrong way....I have plenty of people I know that I hate.... so no room to hate those i don't know... soooo... Sorry buddy... make it a great day...

 

I thought this going to be an informative thread, but it is turning south fast, so I am moving on now.

 

good post!!! were both motors the same???? I ran in to this problem when I had my streetrod shop...the dreaded trying to cool a small block chevy 400 ci... the Siamese cyl. just run hotter... more like 200 instead of 180... one trick, or bandaid if you will was to run the heater hoses to a condenser under the car with a fan on it to add extra coolent... also a thing I found on motors that I couldn't cool was to pop out the freeze plug and clean out the block...some guys do the dingle berry hone, ring and bearing rebuild and skip the hot tank

 

we'll get back on track...

 

next.... the dreaded pulley problem...

it's actually pretty simple... but the hardest to digest...kinda like one tennis shoe and a cowboy boot...yes you can make it work but...???*&^&* wouldn't it just be easier to just get the right pair??? as in pulleys.... you start at the crank.... single pully on the crank... single pully on the pump... then single on the ALT... done... sounds easy right...and the same for double pulleys

here's the zip problem... the alt mount bracket is non adjustable, and is for double belt pulleys... yes you can mod the bracket and alt.... but what happens when you try to change the ALT... or you sell the car and the new owner finds out while out of town and the ALT goes out.... not good..

now,... this is just a thought... and i need to measure today....but...single belt crank pully is on..water pump pully rubs on the pump... it's crome and looks to be a china pulley, they stamp the pulley out of thinner gauge metel so they add a little lip on the back side of the pulley.... so I need to check if theres a pulley that doesn't have the lip...but might have to still use shims there....
also... I'm gonna put both on the bench an measure how tall they are to the pulley mount... I think SBC is 5 5/8'' or close.... but will measure to see if they are the same...

 

so now.... pretty much think I'm gonna cut all the mounts off the zip... and use a zoops head mount ALT bracket...to get it inside the hood on my model A..... so much for the 1 hour water pump riser project....

 

On my Zips riser, I removed the unnecessary brackets and removed the water return goiter . There is plenty of material to tap for a plug. I prefer running the double belt upper pulley because it is smaller in diameter than the single (speeds up water circulation at idle) . I'm using just the ring part of the thermostat. I used the alternator mount because I like where it is positioned . Bill

 

There is a thread on making your own riser. Make it to fit your application.

 

cool... are you running a thermostat.???? and you plugged the by pass?

 

just being funny here,... but thats why I bought the Zip so I wouldn't have to fab everything....

 

sorry, didn't see your respose, just the pics... thats probley the best way to do it... some times running the double belt you need a fan spacer... I think on mine I have enough room for a cluch fan we'll see

 

here's some pics...
first pic show the off alignment second show where I will do the by pass





next pic shows the AC mount, I might just cut part and leave part for the alt adjust bar,..
bottom pic show the zoop mount VS zip...looks like I can cut part out and use the zip and not have anything on the head..

 

I did use some spacers to move the upper pulley into alignment.

 

I cut the little nub off the zip and used a spacer to push it forward... fit perfect.... and lines up right on with the lower pulley,... have to run to auto zone to get the aluminum water pump...

 

I had a 34 ford with a 283 chevy engine, run warmer than i wanted, installed a pump riser, added 5 to 7 degrees. Took off and added fan shroud. problem solved

 

Last two zips I whacked both ears off, cleaned up the castings and installed with the alts on lower mounts. Both were nitpicky as the Vega boxes created issues. Got them to work but took a fair bit of tweakin.
The two projects underway now, both with zips, I’ve just modified the a/c side to use as mounting points for the alt tensioner bracket. The Tudor has an interior heater so built the bypass into that circuit. And the roadster project will likely go without a heater, so bypass circuit will likely just be a loop out of the intake manifold.
Note: water pump pulleys have always taken a shim or two for perfect alignment, but that’s often the case when not using a zips thingamajigger.



And plan is for double belts (but that may change down the road).

 

I made my own riser because I only needed one inch to center my fan. I used an old water pump someone had given me for a mock-up piece. When I was done I went to the parts house and got a generic six cylinder water pump and had the same problem with the pulley hitting the pump. WTF, my mock-up didn't hit. Parts guy said," Bring in your old pump". He matched up the casting number in some book he had. Turns out all six cylinder pumps aren't the same. If I remember right what I needed was one to fit a '79 pick up w/250. No more hitting. Went out and found the box in the garage,
Gates 42085. May need to drill new bolt holes in your pulley.
.

 

I liked this so much…
I decided to make my own.

 

LOL,... I wanted to spend about as much time as it would take to paint them orange... here I am 3 days later still messing with this,... and now auto zone says pumps are out of stock......

oh, and your fab work looks great!!!

 

I thought about that, but I didn't have the space.

 

Wow.

 

One of the aluminum pumps has a nice cast impeller. Helps keep cavitation down.

 

FWIW, I really like the FlowKooler hi-vol pumps. Little pricier, but really work.